Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF

[Lumber]

I'd like to start by pointing out that "off duty" has very little meaning to it when we are talking about (still) illegal drugs (even marijuana). On a visit to Victoria, the PM stated very clearly that possession of MJ was still illegal. (caveats abound here).

The MP detachment would start an investigation. They may hand it off to the National Drug Enforcement Team of the CFNIS if it were serious enough.

They may use the information for intelligence gathering purposes (i.e. where is Cpl Smith getting the drugs? Are others getting them too? Is he selling them? Does he sell other drugs?) or they may attempt to gather evidence of use and then swear what is known as a "Test for Cause" which compels the member to provide a sample. Members may also be investigated for possession, production or trafficking as the situation warrants.

Are there statistics that are available on "number of tips/complaints/reports", and "number of actual investigations opened as a result"?

Do the MPs ever get a call about suspected cannabis use and just say "Ok, thanks" and do nothing further? I ask because, I have a lot of civilian police friends, and given the casual attitude toward cannabis in "civilian" Canada, they often just don't care about cannabis use. They will walk right by people smoking a joint on the street because they simply to not have the time or resources to bother intervening with something that most of Canada feels is relatively harmless. Does this also happen with the MPs?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Are there statistics that are available on "number of tips/complaints/reports", and "number of actual investigations opened as a result"?

Do the MPs ever get a call about suspected cannabis use and just say "Ok, thanks" and do nothing further? I ask because, I have a lot of civilian police friends, and given the casual attitude toward cannabis in "civilian" Canada, they often just don't care about cannabis use. They will walk right by people smoking a joint on the street because they simply to not have the time or resources to bother intervening with something that most of Canada feels is relatively harmless. Does this also happen with the MPs?

Considering the nature of our job, and that not just users but suppliers with links to organized crime potentially on our bases, it's definitely taken a lot more seriously.

 

[Lumber]

Considering the nature of our job, and that not just users but suppliers with links to organized crime potentially on our bases, it's definitely taken a lot more seriously.

Oh I imagine it does get taken more seriously, and I'm glad that it does. I guess I'm just curious how much more serious? Is it zero tolerance, or do the MPs turned a blind eye to some reports if it's just for "casual" use as I've seen from civi police? (well, not actually "seen" but heard stories first hand form civi cops).

 

[Altair]

Was there a point here?  Whatever point you are trying to make seems to be lost in translation.

You said "Not touching that can of worms." , then you  proceeded to do just that.

The point was I'm not going to be the guy who starts telling the CoC every little thing other soldiers are doing on their free time.

Completely not worth being the most hated untrusted soldier in a section just to let the CoC know that someone is smoking weed on the weekend.

That's the can of worms I'm refusing to touch.

 

[JesseWZ]

Are there statistics that are available on "number of tips/complaints/reports", and "number of actual investigations opened as a result"?

Do the MPs ever get a call about suspected cannabis use and just say "Ok, thanks" and do nothing further? I ask because, I have a lot of civilian police friends, and given the casual attitude toward cannabis in "civilian" Canada, they often just don't care about cannabis use. They will walk right by people smoking a joint on the street because they simply to not have the time or resources to bother intervening with something that most of Canada feels is relatively harmless. Does this also happen with the MPs?

While I can't speak for the entire MP Branch, tips, calls, etc, do should be looked at. Sometimes they are just used to build an intelligence narrative, or to justify expanding a current investigation to include new suspects, and sometimes they just sit as information that is good to know.

I don't currently work in the drug unit, however in my experience (a few years on the road, 1 in the General Investigation Section/Court Liaison Position, and 1 in the CFNIS), all drug tips are at the very least recorded and followed up on. Often it depends on the quality/quantity of information received. If its a one line anonymous tip on the tips line with no verifiable information, it has to be taken for what it's worth.

Cheers

 

[JesseWZ]

The point was I'm not going to be the guy who starts telling the CoC every little thing other soldiers are doing on their free time.

Completely not worth being the most hated untrusted soldier in a section just to let the CoC know that someone is smoking weed on the weekend.

That's the can of worms I'm refusing to touch.

I don't understand you. You posted in a thread about Legal Cannabis use, alluding to knowledge of illegal cannabis use. That wasn't the discussion. Then, when you are called on your knowledge of illegal cannabis use, you hide behind some kind of excuse involving your interpersonal relationships with your section justifying a blatant disregard for specific orders and directions on your duty to report.

In my opinion, you lack moral courage and could use some remedial training on ethics. If only the CF had some kind of yearly ethics presentation everyone is required to review and understand... :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The big issue is going to be in terms of "bottle to throttle" times (I didn't think "Toke to stoke" would work)...an issue with THC is that is a fat soluble drug, which is why it likes your brain so much.  However, because of that, it also is less predictable metabolically as far as degradation, unlike alcohol, which I can pretty much time with a stop watch.  As an extreme, I had a rather obese patient of mine that was a very regular weed smoker that had a safety sensitive job that required regular testing - they were still pissing positive for well over 6 months after they quit, because the stuff was stored in their fat cells...and they were actively losing weight to boot, so it was coming out in droves.  So, we have to either say no use is good use, OR that you'll have to maintain a certain body fat percentage if you want to use.  The other issue of course is abuse - just like alcohol, if you let them have a little, they sometimes take a lot, and continue to.  The standards for misuse/abuse will have to be maintained/adjusted - if you show up stoned, tough tiddly winks just as if you're drunk.

:2c:

MM

Any thoughts on how they'll view this for things like Aircrew, divers, submariners?  The medical standards and factors seem to be more stringent there.  Trying to picture Cheech and Chong in the cockpit of a CAF aircraft etc.

 

[Altair]

I don't understand you. You posted in a thread about Legal Cannabis use, alluding to knowledge of illegal cannabis use. That wasn't the discussion. Then, when you are called on your knowledge of illegal cannabis use, you hide behind some kind of excuse involving your interpersonal relationships with your section justifying a blatant disregard for specific orders and directions on your duty to report.

In my opinion, you lack moral courage and could use some remedial training on ethics. If only the CF had some kind of yearly ethics presentation everyone is required to review and understand... :

Ah yes, me and every other person who is privy to this information in my section could definitely use a ethics brief.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ah yes, me and every other person who is privy to this information in my section could definitely use a ethics brief.

Everyone knows Bloggins is jokin and tokin and no one, not even the NCOs or WOs, care?  Civilian Canadian Society can judge weed use to be OK! and the laws can change accordingly.  In the military, we play by our own rules that don't necessarily run the same track.  AFAIK, prohibited drug use in the CAF is an offence.  I guess you guys think its ok with Smithers leaves the mess hammered up and drives home too?

* I am assuming you were being sarcastic.  :nod:

For consideration....

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-3.page

3.1 The CAF is committed to a drug-free workforce by providing the appropriate tools and information to reduce or eliminate the drug-risk behaviours of CAF members.

General

5.1 The chain of command and individual CAF members are responsible for the deterrence and detection of prohibited drug use and other involvement with drugs by CAF members.

Other Involvement with Drugs

5.2 The following table amplifies "other involvement with drugs" by a CAF member:

Examples of drug-related conduct that does not constitute other involvement with drugs for the purposes of this DAOD include, but are not limited to …•failing to report prohibited drug use or other involvement with drugs by another CAF member;


Not clear enough?  How about this then...

QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 5 Duties and Responsibilities of Non-Commissioned Members

5.01- GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

A non-commissioned member shall:

a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the member's duties;

b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;

c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all who are subordinate to the member;

d.ensure the proper care and maintenance and prevent the waste of all public and non-public property within the member's control; and

e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

Unless it changed very recently, the CAF still prohibits drug use.  The laws of Canada...still no change. 

 

[Altair]

Everyone knows Bloggins is jokin and tokin and no one, not even the NCOs or WOs, care?  Civilian Canadian Society can judge weed use to be OK! and the laws can change accordingly.  In the military, we play by our own rules that don't necessarily run the same track.  AFAIK, prohibited drug use in the CAF is an offence.  I guess you guys think its ok with Smithers leaves the mess hammered up and drives home too?

Without getting into the specifics, I know for a fact that most of the junior guys know, we were all shooting the shit and that came out. A few others said they partake on occasion as well. That was over a year ago. He does it on weekends in the comfort of his own home, nobody cares, the guy hasn't been called out on it, nor anyone else who said they use it.

The guy is a keener, works hard, will probably be a RSM one day, CoC loves him, never complains, and is overall a great soldier. If you want to relate that to being a danger to others by driving under the influence, be my guest, but I don't think that's the case and I wont be the guy blading someone when nobody I know has a problem with what he said. He's not a danger to himself or others, so I'll mind my own business.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Without getting into the specifics, I know for a fact that most of the junior guys know, we were all shooting the shit and that came out. A few others said they partake on occasion as well. That was over a year ago. He does it on weekends in the comfort of his own home, nobody cares, the guy hasn't been called out on it, nor anyone else who said they use it.

The guy is a keener, works hard, will probably be a RSM one day, CoC loves him, never complains, and is overall a great soldier. If you want to relate that to being a danger to others by driving under the influence, be my guest, but I don't think that's the case and I wont be the guy blading someone when nobody I know has a problem with what he said. He's not a danger to himself or others, so I'll mind my own business.

Try having a read of the stuff I posted above.  If you know about it, and you don't do something about, YOU are part of the problem.  The laws haven't changed yet, or your duty as a CAF member.  Keener, hard worker, whatever.  He/she is breaking stride with CAF regulations.  Great soldiers are disciplined ones too.  Disciplined people do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, when no one is watching.

His/her CoC wouldn't love him/her if they knew he was using prohibited drugs.  I'd bet a years spec pay on that one.

Personally, I don't know enough about pot use to know how harmful it is, isn't compared to booze etc etc etc.  There are some real valid medical uses for it, sure.  Some vets are benefitting from it and that's good.  Other medical patients, good as well.  If Canada as a society goes legal, great I hope the tax revenue helps Canada.  I don't support it being authorized for use by serving members, I doubt I am alone in that BUT that will be up to the senior Commanders and their expert advisors;  Legal, Medical, etc.  I am not one of them.  I am, as per the DAOD, QR & Os, etc above, as a Snr NCO and NCM, expected to do my job which is enforce whatever regulations are out there.  If I knew someone on my crew was smokin' it up, I'd give them a choice - report to the Flight Surgeon or answer to the CO.

 

[Altair]

Try having a read of the stuff I posted above.  If you know about it, and you don't do something about, YOU are part of the problem.  The laws haven't changed yet, or your duty as a CAF member.  Keener, hard worker, whatever.  He/she is breaking stride with CAF regulations.  Great soldiers are disciplined ones too.  Disciplined people do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, when no one is watching.

His/her CoC wouldn't love him/her if they knew he was using prohibited drugs.  I'd bet a years spec pay on that one.

You would win that bet I'm sure 99 time out of a 100, I'm positive of that.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You would win that bet I'm sure 99 time out of a 100, I'm positive of that.

Yup.  Because it's against the regs and no CO would turn a blind eye to it or they wouldn't be doing THEIR duty.  I know, no one wants to be a blade.  I hope you never have to go to work to find out your co-worker ran some kid over driving while he / she was on the buzz.

Having said that, I've made my view known, I don't want to get a  :Jedi: going. 

Cheers!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The reality in any type of society, there are offenses and then there are offense. You can't stop everyone and charge them and literally everyone breaks some law, bylaw, regulation or guideline everyday. Most police officers quickly learn how to prioritize their time. A person being charged with a minor offense may have created a situation where that charge is followed through on. Just by being polite to a police officers likely saves many Canadians from various tickets every day. Likely smoking pot is the largest civil disobedience in Canada, with unregistered long guns having been 2nd. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

While I agree with all WRT Canadian society at large, I don't agree for within the CAF.  Unless the rules are changed.  8)

 

[the 48th regulator]

Cannabis comes in a variety of strains, with varying levels Cannabinoids.  Just like alcohol, some can be high in the psychoactive, and others safer on impairment than taking an aspirin.  Maybe a little self research would change the minds of a few, and not refer to people using it as "Cheech and Chong".  The stigma is more harmful than the plant itself.  We have many educational threads on this site.

I am all for Cannabis use, when legalized, by ALL Canadians.  The CDS himself was asked that question a little over a year ago, at a town hall here in Toronto. His response?  IF my boss tells me it is legal for the troops, I follow orders like a good soldier.

He placed no bias, or opinion. Just stated fact.  We have many other intoxicants that we tolerate, that arelegal, whether recreational or Medicinal, yet I have never seen any discussion.  Talk about the Devil's Salad, and all hell breaks loose.

It's safe people, and we are already trained to deal with our soldiers performance, concentrate on that, not what can cause the performance to "Possibly" deteriorate.


dileas

tess

 

[mariomike]

For more on "Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF"

Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/16153.650
27 pages.

Marijuana and the military.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/110660.0/nowap.html

Liberal party, legalization marijuana & the CF 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/116407.0

Pilot and Marijuana 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/107285.0
2 pages.

Merged drugs thread (previous use, testing, etc.) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12779.1100
48 pages.

etc...

 

[Loachman]

Keeping in mind that reduced oxygen, reduced air pressure, three-dimensional motion, visual illusions, stress, fatigue, and other factors can all influence the effects that even low levels of these things have, and not for the better, do you really want the guy in the front seat of your helicopter or aeroplane, or the guy about to do the live CAS or CCA run close to your position, even the slightest bit affected by any chemical?

Anybody who answers "yes" is a fool.

I would not, ever, willingly and knowingly, have compromised my ability to perform adequately and safely, as that guy in the front seat.

I never knew of anybody else, in my time, who did, either.

Had I, I would not have let it go unreported.

There is a lengthy history of deaths and aircraft losses due to problem people being left to continue foolish (not necessarily drug- or alcohol-related) ways with no correction.

Proper correction, early enough, can save a person when the problem is small and easily handled and before the result is catastrophic to their career or to people's lives.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Keeping in mind that reduced oxygen, reduced air pressure, three-dimensional motion, visual illusions, stress, fatigue, and other factors can all influence the effects that even low levels of these things have, and not for the better, do you really want the guy in the front seat of your helicopter or aeroplane, or the guy about to do the live CAS or CCA run close to your position, even the slightest bit affected by any chemical?

Anybody who answers "yes" is a fool.

I would not, ever, willingly and knowingly, have compromised my ability to perform adequately and safely, as that guy in the front seat.

I never knew of anybody else, in my time, who did, either.

Had I, I would not have let it go unreported.

There is a lengthy history of deaths and aircraft losses due to problem people being left to continue foolish (not necessarily drug- or alcohol-related) ways with no correction.

Proper correction, early enough, can save a person when the problem is small and easily handled and before the result is catastrophic to their career or to people's lives.

Very well said.

That is why the onus is on the individual, not the system, to actually controll that. 

If you had a mission in the morning, to fly, I surely hope the night/Morning before the pilots have not been dong shots of tequila, chased with large shots of Prairie fires.  Totally irresponsible of the individual.

I would expect the same from Cannabis, or any other intoxicant, whether it is used medicinally or recreationally.  Period, Full Stop.

dileas

tess

 

[Stoker]

Honestly the trouble we currently have and had in the forces with alcohol and drugs including Cannabis and we end up legalizing it in the forces is something we don't need.  Like was mentioned before with all the variables including strain, affecting everyone differently is not like having a beer at all. That being said once you are out have at er.