Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF

[Eye In The Sky]

Cannabis comes in a variety of strains, with varying levels Cannabinoids.  Just like alcohol, some can be high in the psychoactive, and others safer on impairment than taking an aspirin.  Maybe a little self research would change the minds of a few, and not refer to people using it as "Cheech and Chong".  The stigma is more harmful than the plant itself.  We have many educational threads on this site.

I am all for Cannabis use, when legalized, by ALL Canadians.  The CDS himself was asked that question a little over a year ago, at a town hall here in Toronto. His response?  IF my boss tells me it is legal for the troops, I follow orders like a good soldier.

He placed no bias, or opinion. Just stated fact.  We have many other intoxicants that we tolerate, that arelegal, whether recreational or Medicinal, yet I have never seen any discussion.  Talk about the Devil's Salad, and all hell breaks loose.

It's safe people, and we are already trained to deal with our soldiers performance, concentrate on that, not what can cause the performance to "Possibly" deteriorate.


dileas

tess

As MedicineMan mentioned in his post, you can use a clock for alcohol, but THC works differently.  We have an 8 hours before DUTY, 12 hours before FLYING rule we follow.  Rigidly.  I can't see a CAF where SAR Techs, Clearance Divers, pilots and such are authorized to use this drug.

Canadian society at large...hey, do whatever is legal.  Same as the CAF, but as we see in the thread we have people doing it, people who know and are turning a blind eye.  Our rules are still rules.

I'll leave it in the hands of the CofC and their Legal and Medical advisors, and enforce whatever rules they come out with.  If its proven to be medically fit for flyers, I guess I'll have to decide it I want to keep on logging hours. 

My main concern, at this point, is the concept that people are turning the blind eye.  We have rules, we operate on discipline or the wheels start to come off. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Honestly the trouble we currently have and had in the forces with alcohol and drugs including Cannabis and we end up legalizing it in the forces is something we don't need.  Like was mentioned before with all the variables including strain, affecting everyone differently is not like having a beer at all. That being said once you are out have at er.

So by your reasoning, we should prohibit Alcohol as well.  Including off duty use.

We have implemented that assinine concept overseas, why not bring Here?

dileas

tess

 

[the 48th regulator]

As MM mentioned in his post, you can use a clock for alcohol, but THC works differently.  We have an 8 hours before DUTY, 12 hours before FLYING rule we follow.  Rigidly.  I can't see a CAF where SAR Techs, Clearance Divers, pilots and such are authorized to use this drug.

Canadian society at large...hey, do whatever is legal.  Same as the CAF, but as we see in the thread we have people doing it, people who know and are turning a blind eye.  Our rules are still rules.

I'll leave it in the hands of the CofC and their Legal and Medical advisors, and enforce whatever rules they come out with.  If its proven to be medically fit for flyers, I guess I'll have to decide it I want to keep on logging hours. 

My main concern, at this point, is the concept that people are turning the blind eye.  We have rules, we operate on discipline or the wheels start to come off.

I appreciate your quoting a Medic SME on this, but please provide tome a resource that indicates Cannabis use has increased any form of danger.

Pundits like to use the "Lack of research" excuse, however many countries have legalized it, so I am sure you can provide evidence that supports your post.  You are now delving into medical, so I am fair for asking you to provide back up to your statement. Maybe MM can help you.

dileas

tess

 

[Loachman]

That is why the onus is on the individual, not the system, to actually controll that.

Agreed, in the case of Aircrew and probably some other groups, but what of the average young Soldier?

For any significant flying incident or accident, blood and urine samples are taken. I and my crew did that three days/nights in a row in KAF, once for the loss of each Sperwer UAV (yup, three in a row - BAM-BAM-BAM; I was quite jittery for the next launch), even though the initial indications were mechanical failure (and backed up by the full investigations). I am quite sure that such testing is always in the back of each Aircrewman's mind, which is a good additional incentive to anybody who needs one.

As marijuana can show up in the blood for long periods after use, though, and the allowable blood levels proposed are apparently not good indications of impairment according to the interesting studies that you published in the other thread, how does one prove impairment? It's easy to determine alcoholic impairment, and it leaves the blood relatively quickly.

What about other drugs? Those that are non-addictive, reasonably safe (using alcohol as a benchmark, perhaps), and also leave the blood relatively quickly, may be acceptable some day.

For certain groups, until reliable means of assessing even minor impairment exist, no-tolerance measures - ie no presence in the blood whatsoever - are the most sensible.

 

[Stoker]

So by your reasoning, we should prohibit Alcohol as well.  Including off duty use.

We have implemented that assinine concept overseas, why not bring Here?

dileas

tess

I thought we agreed not to comment on each others posts to keep the peace?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Agreed, in the case of Aircrew and probably some other groups, but what of the average young Soldier?

For any significant flying incident or accident, blood and urine samples are taken. I and my crew did that three days/nights in a row in KAF, once for the loss of each Sperwer UAV (yup, three in a row - BAM-BAM-BAM; I was quite jittery for the next launch), even though the initial indications were mechanical failure (and backed up by the full investigations). I am quite sure that such testing is always in the back of each Aircrewman's mind, which is a good additional incentive to anybody who needs one.

As marijuana can show up in the blood for long periods after use, though, and the allowable blood levels proposed are apparently not good indications of impairment according to the interesting studies that you published in the other thread, how does one prove impairment? It's easy to determine alcoholic impairment, and it leaves the blood relatively quickly.

What about other drugs? Those that are non-addictive, reasonably safe (using alcohol as a benchmark, perhaps), and also leave the blood relatively quickly, may be acceptable some day.

For certain groups, until reliable means of assessing even minor impairment exist, no-tolerance measures - ie no presence in the blood whatsoever - are the most sensible.

Very good point,

But the concept of zero content in blood, if we were to really abide by that, and use proper testing methods I can guess that 80% of the military would be dinged for self medication. 

What about the supplements that people use.  Over the counter medication.  Hell, some people are allergic to certain foods, which can cause impairment.  Do we now search for that in our Military Members?

I mean, the zero tolerance argument is cute, however is not really acceptable.  Traces of Cannabinoids in the system, does not always equal impairment.  Take CBD as an example.  Non Psychoactive.  However with your argument, it would be banned.  Redbull causes more to impair, in fact your normal coffee does.

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about Poppy Seed Bagels....

dileas

tess

 

[the 48th regulator]

I thought we agreed not to comment on each others posts to keep the peace?

I thought we agreed not to make it personal. 

I didn not give you a carte blanche to post assinine theories, and not be challenged.  Sorry for hurting your raw feelings.  That was not my intent.

Either way, I disagreed with you, and kept it civil.  What are you going to do now?  Rally troops to attack my milpoints like in the past??  Put me on warning so I can't post??

dileas

tess

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I appreciate your quoting a Medic SME on this, but please provide tome a resource that indicates Cannabis use has increased any form of danger.

Pundits like to use the "Lack of research" excuse, however many countries have legalized it, so I am sure you can provide evidence that supports your post.  You are now delving into medical, so I am fair for asking you to provide back up to your statement. Maybe MM can help you.

dileas

tess

I am not a Medical person, however I am somewhat aware of that any substance can affect a person differently at altitude, or in a pressure environment (divers) differently.  Things people can take without seeing a MO, I have to see a Flt Surgeon for, because despite being pressurized, my aircraft doesn't operate at a cabin altitude of *surface* when I am transitting at FLO 260, as an example.  I know this because of my AMT (Aeromedical Training) course and briefings from flight surgeons.  I can't take any OTC medication / self medicate for a cold if I am flying, as an example, because the product I get at Lawtons might not work out so well at altitude;  or with something else I might be taking (I take Aerius and Flonaise regularly, prescribed by a Flt Srgn).  I rely on medical professionals to determine what I can or can't take and fly now, so I'll do the same with this and then enforce whatever the rules might be in the future.  Same as I would now for the 12 hours bottle to throttle for booze.

MM already gave a basic overview of the difference between alcohol and THC, and the difference in how the body handles them.  I'll leave it to the medical people to go further into detail, they are the SMEs and I rely on them to tell me what I can and can't do or take, so that I am not a thud in the air who endangers lives and airframes.

The issue, as I said, is the whole "turn a blind eye" aspect.  We have rules, and they are supposed to be followed.  Full stop.  What is my reference about prohibited drug use being bad for CAF members?  I already posted it, and its the only one that really counts for CAF members.  Everything else..opinion.  This is policy.  Until weed is deemed legal, its still prohibited for use by CAF members (without medical prescription which will likely result in significant MELs) and THAT is what counts more than my, or your, opinion.  If its determined safe and legal, then it is and it then is a non-issue.  Right now, to my knowledge, that isn't the case.  So it is not ok to use and lace the boots up...at this time.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-3.page

prohibited drug use

any use of drugs contrary to QR&O article 20.04, Prohibition.

20.04 - PROHIBITION

No officer or non-commissioned member shall use any drug unless:
a.the member is authorized to use the drug by a qualified medical or dental practitioner for the purposes of medical treatment or dental care;
b.the drug is contained in a non-prescription medication used by the member in accordance with the instructions accompanying the medication; or
c.the member is required to use the drug in the course of military duties.

(G)

NOTES

(A) Possession, possession for purpose of trafficking, trafficking, importing, exporting, manufacturing and cultivating certain drugs constitute offences contrary to federal legislation such as the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. These activities are included in the phrase "other involvement with drugs" which appears in articles 20.05 (Education) and 20.19 (Treatment and Rehabilitation). (1 September 1999)

(B) This regulation does not authorize a military authority to order or permit the use of a drug by a member when that use, or possession of the drug, is prohibited by another law.

(C) (1 September 1999)




I am more concerned with the issue of (1) the rules DO prohibit it now and (2) people are turning a blind eye to the rules.  Whether I agree with those rules, or not, as a Snr NCO, isn't relevant.  I get paid to enforce the ones that exist.  Of all the ones I concern myself with now, the 12 hours bottle to throttle would be one of the top ones when flying is involved.

Great topic and discussion so far, hope this one doesn't swirl to a lock.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I am not a Medical person, however I am somewhat aware of that any substance can affect a person differently at altitude, or in a pressure environment (divers) differently.  Things people can take without seeing a MO, I have to see a Flt Surgeon for, because despite being pressurized, my aircraft doesn't operate at a cabin altitude of *surface* when I am transitting at FLO 260, as an example.  I know this because of my AMT (Aeromedical Training) course and briefings from flight surgeons.  I can't take any OTC medication / self medicate for a cold if I am flying, as an example, because the product I get at Lawtons might not work out so well at altitude;  or with something else I might be taking (I take Aerius and Flonaise regularly, prescribed by a Flt Srgn).

MM already gave a basic overview of the difference between alcohol and THC, and the difference in how the body handles them.  I'll leave it to the medical people to go further into detail, they are the SMEs and I rely on them to tell me what I can and can't do or take, so that I am not a thud in the air who endangers lives and airframes.

The issue, as I said, is the whole "turn a blind eye" aspect.  We have rules, and they are supposed to be followed.  Full stop.  What is my reference about prohibited drug use being bad for CAF members?  I already posted it, and its the only one that really counts for CAF members.  Everything else..opinion.  This is policy.  Until weed is deemed legal, its still prohibited for use by CAF members (without medical prescription which will likely result in significant MELs) and THAT is what counts more than my, or your, opinion.  If its determined safe and legal, then it is and it then is a non-issue.  Right now, to my knowledge, that isn't the case.  So it is not ok to use and lace the boots up...at this time.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-3.page

prohibited drug use

any use of drugs contrary to QR&O article 20.04, Prohibition.

20.04 - PROHIBITION

No officer or non-commissioned member shall use any drug unless:
a.the member is authorized to use the drug by a qualified medical or dental practitioner for the purposes of medical treatment or dental care;
b.the drug is contained in a non-prescription medication used by the member in accordance with the instructions accompanying the medication; or
c.the member is required to use the drug in the course of military duties.

(G)

NOTES

(A) Possession, possession for purpose of trafficking, trafficking, importing, exporting, manufacturing and cultivating certain drugs constitute offences contrary to federal legislation such as the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. These activities are included in the phrase "other involvement with drugs" which appears in articles 20.05 (Education) and 20.19 (Treatment and Rehabilitation). (1 September 1999)

(B) This regulation does not authorize a military authority to order or permit the use of a drug by a member when that use, or possession of the drug, is prohibited by another law.

(C) (1 September 1999)

Can you direct me to one investigation of an accident within CAF, that was attributed to an intoxicant being in the system of any of the victims.

We have had many, which have caused death and injuires.

dileas

tess

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Relevance?  Rules and regulations are supposed to be followed.  A disciplined force, etc.  It is the military still, right?

I think we are focusing on different issues about legalized pot use in the CAF...yours being it is fine and could be permitted, mine being *I agree, it could be and might be*m but that isn't the case now and we need to operate of the "now" rules.

 

[Stoker]

I thought we agreed not to make it personal. 

I didn not give you a carte blanche to post assinine theories, and not be challenged.  Sorry for hurting your raw feelings.  That was not my intent.

Either way, I disagreed with you, and kept it civil.  What are you going to do now?  Rally troops to attack my milpoints like in the past??  Put me on warning so I can't post??

dileas

tess

Quote from: Chief Stoker on April 26, 2017, 17:41:32

Its obvious we'll never agree in regards to cannabis use. How about to keep the peace I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine. Will that be ok?


I am happy with that.  No need for us to constantly bicker.

dileas

tess

 

[the 48th regulator]

Quote from: Chief Stoker on April 26, 2017, 17:41:32

Its obvious we'll never agree in regards to cannabis use. How about to keep the peace I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine. Will that be ok?


I am happy with that.  No need for us to constantly bicker.

dileas

tess

Seen,

No more interaction then.  Remember, this is forever.

This includes your dirty Milpoint deduction tricks, capisce?


dileas

tess

 

[the 48th regulator]

Relevance?  Rules and regulations are supposed to be followed.  A disciplined force, etc.  It is the military still, right?

I think we are focusing on different issues about legalized pot use in the CAF...yours being it is fine and could be permitted, mine being *I agree, it could be and might be*m but that isn't the case now and we need to operate of the "now" rules.

Ok,

I am not trying to attack you, but that post was the most convusing of all. This thread is about legalizing Cannabis Recreationally, and whther it is ok for CAF members to use it.  We are not talking about now, although it did bleed through with Altair's post.

Let's keep on topic, as I feel you are the one straying, not me.

dileas

tess

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Unless I missed something, the thread topic is Legal Cannabis use in the CAF.  I'd say we're both on topic. 

8)

 

[the 48th regulator]

Unless I missed something, the thread topic is Legal Cannabis use in the CAF.  I'd say we're both on topic. 

8)

Yes....We....Are.....  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Did that just happen, or did I miss something?

dileas

tess

 

[Eaglelord17]

My opinion is that legalization of Marijuana won't have any effect on the CAF because so many people consume it already and we have no negative effects from that (or at least obvious effects).

I would place money on if we did a CAF wide drug test that at least 10% would turn up positive for something in their system, and if we did it tomorrow (i.e. Saturday) quite a few would turn up with Cocaine in their system as they consume it on Friday, and by Monday they are clean.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

From what I hear that at "clean camps", workers use harder drugs that don't leave a trace when they are getting close to go back into the camps.

 

[Loachman]

Seen,

No more interaction then.  Remember, this is forever.

This includes your dirty Milpoint deduction tricks, capisce?


dileas

tess

Please - BOTH OF YOU - play nicely and be very careful what you say to each other. I am not taking sides, but I am appreciative of the sensitivities and strong opinions involved here. None of us want to see any more flare-ups. This thread has been pleasantly civilized and informative, so far, and I'd rather see that continue.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Please - BOTH OF YOU - play nicely and be very careful what you say to each other. I am not taking sides, but I am appreciative of the sensitivities and strong opinions involved here. None of us want to see any more flare-ups. This thread has been pleasantly civilized and informative, so far, and I'd rather see that continue.

Very good point.  A matter that could have been managed via PMs.

dileas

tess

 

[Loachman]

But the concept of zero content in blood, if we were to really abide by that, and use proper testing methods I can guess that 80% of the military would be dinged for self medication.

Nobody's likely to get dinged for taking aspirin etcetera, except Aircrew, unless approved by a Flight Surgeon (as EITS said), and certain others. And there's common sense applied there as well - somebody waking up sick in the morning could reasonably take some legal product for a bit of relief and then go in to see a Flight Surgeon. He's likely to be grounded by the condition, anyway. Flying after taking a non-Flight Surgeon-approved but legal medication is not, however, acceptable.

What about the supplements that people use.  Over the counter medication.  Hell, some people are allergic to certain foods, which can cause impairment.  Do we now search for that in our Military Members?

What supplements? Protein powders? Legal. Steroids? Not legal, as far as I know, and foolish. Everybody that I know who has food allergies avoids those foods very carefully, and would most likely seek medical attention should the effects be serious. They'd certainly not be eating those foods for recreational purposes and then try and conceal the effects.

I mean, the zero tolerance argument is cute, however is not really acceptable.

It is the only acceptable policy for CF members in certain groups. For others, possibly not so much, if at all.

Lines still have to be drawn somewhere, even though some people on either side of those lines will not be happy.

Traces of Cannabinoids in the system, does not always equal impairment.  Take CBD as an example.  Non Psychoactive.  However with your argument, it would be banned.

I know, and that is what causes a good part of the problem. Were a strain to be developed (probably not possible) whose active elements could be completely metabolized in a few hours, like alcohol, that problem would disappear. I've heard of CF members (but not in any unit of which I have been a member) using cocaine as Eaglelord17 described. Personally, while I think that that is foolish, as long as they are not posing a threat then I am not particularly fussed. I also agree with his comment that legalization would not likely change usage patterns for CF members, or, as I have stated elsewhere, in the overall Canadian population. Them's what's going to use it are going to use it regardless. Many are willing to accept the low risk of getting caught for the pleasure that they get. Many others have no interest, and may or may not care about what others use. I tend not to care what people take for their pleasure, as long as they do not place others at risk.

Redbull causes more to impair, in fact your normal coffee does.

Both, however, are legal. And no Flight Surgeon has ever told me that I cannot drink tea (my preference) or coffee prior to flying.