LeoC2s for Armoured Reserve

[Recce41]

12A
My father was in back when the Hussars had tanks. They were one of the Reg Regts remember? Most reserves back then were lead by WW2/Korea vets. The work ethic was different. Now even in the regs, there more people on stress leave BS. I spent 2 yrs in the res. But due that I was a Army kid, had that you serve you work attitude. At 42, and kids of my own. I see the differance in kids.
As for tanks, kicking the tyres on a Cougar, to a crew of 4 changing track is different I think? Right now there is 1 soldier for 2 Leos at the ARMOUR SCHOOL. There was 2 soldiers for every Leo at the Regt before I left. I am not knocking the Reses as a whole, just until the working of the reserves change. Tanks will never be with the Reserves.
Slim, you said it. The NG has full time soldiers to work on their tanks. But I have seen US tanks sitting because they done even have the people.
:evil: :tank:

 

[12alfa]

Allan, I'm not taking this the wrong way, but facts are facts. I have stated some, while others have not, why is that?

Comments and not facts with hard data to back up ones view is silly, would you not agree?

If you were told the following would you not react?

-The reserves could not spend the time fixing the things. Also, in the regs, a crew signs for and is responsible for their own agonywagons. That is part of the responsability of D and M.

-The reserves could not do the amount of maint required to keep the tanks operational
The tanks would just wind up sitting around broken all the time.

-The Reserves don't have the skills and knowledge
-A Full Time Reservist is no cheaper than a Reg Force soldier.
-Facilities would have to be built to house the tanks. Facilities would have to be built to Train and Maintain the crews and vehicles.

-The BIGGEST reason that the Reserves will not get Tanks is the fact that tanks are heavy and travel on TRACKS..


-George and Franko are right when they say that the Reserves don't have the money nor manpower to maintain them

-the Reserves: too many uncommitted people

. But I stand by what I said before: the Reserves could never take on the Leopards

-The reserves DO NOT HAVE THE DEDICATED manpower or knowledge base to perform Leo maint on a long term basis

-12A don't give me we could crap,

As for you crewcommanding a Leopard; well whoopee ding!

You may be totally out of touch with reality.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

I guess we don't know a whole lot

When i state a fact i get ranting, why can't we give real data, and not the above?


Maybe i did start this, as i read back ..........

 

[12alfa]

12A
My father was in back when the Hussars had tanks. They were one of the Reg Regts remember? Most reserves back then were lead by WW2/Korea vets. The work ethic was different. Now even in the regs, there more people on stress leave BS. I spent 2 yrs in the res. But due that I was a Army kid, had that you serve you work attitude. At 42, and kids of my own. I see the differance in kids.
As for tanks, kicking the tyres on a Cougar, to a crew of 4 changing track is different I think? Right now there is 1 soldier for 2 Leos at the ARMOUR SCHOOL. There was 2 soldiers for every Leo at the Regt before I left. I am not knocking the Reses as a whole, just until the working of the reserves change. Tanks will never be with the Reserves.
Slim, you said it. The NG has full time soldiers to work on their tanks. But I have seen US tanks sitting because they done even have the people.
:evil: :tank:

Thanks for the comments. I too am in my late 40's, have 2 children, a regular job and still doing the army thing.. Good to hear more Hussar stories.

I have a short fuse when i see/hear the same old shit about anything that people view and then spred the word without checking on the real story or facts.
I think with the changes the army as a whole is going through the enviroment is very stressfull, we went through the same at my civie job 2 years ago, some times I think we never recovered from it. I can only see from the out side on what must be taking place in the formar tank units. We have had a return of some reg force troops back to my unit, and the stories they tell make me wonder on the corp as a whole, and what the future will do to it.
I think the writting was on the wall when they disbanded the reg Hussar Sqn in G-town, it was the start down a long road to the end as we see it now.

I see the ,reg force will end up with super soakers in lue of tanks ,res will have them also, but with out water, heheheh.

It was fun,and I'm over it allready, I'll look for another topic as this one in void of some real data for now. Please don't let me have the last word...rant/oops post on.

 

[ZipperHead]

A few more thoughts: it seems that the Reg Force gets the blame whenever it comes to qualifications or training (or lack thereof )for the Reserves. If there are/were so many dedicated Reservists, wouldn't they make the effort to get the training in. And don't say it's because that the Reg Force can't/won't support them. It's up to the Reserves to train the Reserves (as much as that pains me to say it.....). I would love to be able to spend all my time training the Reserves (mold them in my image   >), but the fact of the matter is that I am paid to train whomever I am told to train, and right now that is Reg Force officers. We have a Reg Capt and WO starting up a RTLC course right now. I'll be curious to see how many dedicated Reservists can't make it out for that. And who will fill in the gaps????? You get 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count.

As for my/your comments on the swan trips to Fort Knox: you say that is a good opportunity to put your training to use. Fair enough. I can see how a Cougar and an M1 are very similar. Or a Iltis and a Bradley. Or how I had to teach some Reservists what a jockey was, as they were so highly trained before they made their trip down there. I guess we should have never gotten to leave the base to go to Louisville. Remember why we (A Sqn) got down there early to set up for the main body to show up? Because there wasn't so many Reservists able/willing to show up to do the grunt work. Forgive us for "taking a break" and showing our lack of dedication and committment to the Regiment.

It seems that we (the Reg Force guys weighing in) have a big lack of facts, and you have the monopoly. What are your experiences with the Reserve world in LFCA or LFWA? Funny, I have experiences with all three (LFAA included). I also worked in Whitehorse Cadet Camp, and had dealings with SQFT pers (mind you they were mostly Medics, and a few hottie French medics at that....). I can't speak for GW or Recce41 for LFWA experience, but they have central and eastern experience. I see a pattern developing. We don't know what we're talking about, I suppose. Who's right and who's wrong, or right out of 'er, doesn't really matter. We know what we're talking about. We have seen what hass happened in both the Regular force and Reserve worlds. I am not particularly happy with the outcome of either, and I only have influence over my little corner of the Armour School with the soldiers that I train, and that work for me. I would hope that when they leave my troop, they can say that, whether or not they liked me or my ways, that "Sgt Luomala trained me to the best of his abilities". Hopefully there are people in Armouries everywhere thinking in that frame of mind. And if not, don't blame the Regular Force for that. BTW, I like the slam about the Reg Force people that work with you guys

.We have had rss staff here that were sent to us because they were , well lets say better off with some one else that their reg force unit

May have to copy and post it to WO Stairs. Or Paul Brine. Or Halfkenny. They like a good joke from time to time, I'm sure.

Al

 

[Infanteer]

A few more thoughts: it seems that the Reg Force gets the blame whenever it comes to qualifications or training (or lack thereof )for the Reserves. If there are/were so many dedicated Reservists, wouldn't they make the effort to get the training in. And don't say it's because that the Reg Force can't/won't support them. It's up to the Reserves to train the Reserves (as much as that pains me to say it.....).

Allan, I agree with you here.   My reserve unit had about as 10-15 Sergeants and Warrant Officers that I can name off the top of my head, and yet I could think of 3-5 who put in the amount of dedication that some of the troops put in.   The leadership was constantly harping on the need for soldiers to show up for every ex and parade night, and yet we had maybe 10% showing by our SNCO's.   You could look at last years pay sheets and find the proof.   I think the same frustration was felt in among the junior officers, where 2 or 3 officers were picking up the slack and doing everything in the unit.

I brought this up once and wondered, considering all the experience our NCO's had from reg force experience, tours, etc, why we weren't running inhouse trade courses, or at least within the Brigade.   Instead, we now have Sergeants with 6 years in and a comms course.   Not to detract from their leadership abilities (I know some good ones), but as the holders of technical expertise for the Infantry, this bodes very bad for the Corps, and I'm sure the other arms are experiencing the same.

I think it is a can't do attitude by Reserve leadership and the blame is foisted onto the Regs, who need all their manpower to training more Regulars.   As well, I think you have figured out one of the two main reasons for this problem (the other one I would say would be the ridiculous politics of reserve units and their funding).  

However, what do I know, I'm only a Corporal....

 

[12alfa]

have to copy and post it to WO Stairs. Or Paul Brine. Or Halfkenny. They like a good joke from time to time, I'm sure.

Sure we have clased before on may aspects of the unit, the army and various subjects, we are all open type troops.The next day its back to our jobs, life goes on.

I served in Ger with Gunney Stairs, we were both res at the time.Now he and Tom do most if not all of the prep work for our deployment to Knox and the units yearly training. Paul has been here before with the total force, this time he has aged and seems to have a improved outlook on the res, the army in generall All great guys, but we have all different feelings in all aspects of our training and have  together not changed in that department. Toms brother as well as his farher did time in my unit, there roots are here, the nuts don't fall far from the tree. (i ment that in a good way, heheheh).Tom I think will leave soon, Gunney will be put out to paster soon, if he does not go loonie first, LOL. They were commited to show for our parades a few weekends ago from there tasks in G-Town.By now they know I'm a "red neck" They also know that I'm there 90% of the time if not more.
We have lost in my sqn alone in the last 2 monts 4 Mcpl's, we know what it is to short handed, we share most of your problems, we are closer in manpower shortfalls than in recent history.

But as you and many have stated, there are more things in common with both forces than ever before. And I also feel it is better for the res/regs now than say 10 years ago. Now we have problems we never dreamed would befall us, it's strange not to fill all job/tasks asked of us, years a go 5 on callout would have been the norm, my troop of 16 has 8 on a callout lasting mostly to next March. Very had to do any trg'ing with 1/2 the troops away.
But we were all young once, the money is good, and so is the work in the field, i'm temped myself, then i slap myself, hheheheh.

I would hope that they have seen a improvement in the unit (they were part of that change for the good) in the last 10 or so years in most areas, some are hard to change when you have no control over them, much the same in the regs i would think.

Do you know a Steve McLean from the 12RBC? or Brian Brown, WO now i think?

I think I knew what a jockey was b4 arriving in Knox, 30+ years, I must have 1 or 2, being in two Cougar rollovers is not helping with my memory, as well as the onset of old age, LOL Tell Gunney to be nice on his comments about me, I still have the "HORN". :evil:

 

[12alfa]

Remember why we (A Sqn) got down there early to set up for the main body to show up? Because there wasn't so many Reservists able/willing to show up to do the grunt work. Forgive us for "taking a break" and showing our lack of dedication and committment to the Regiment.

Ok, some FACTS for you if i may. We did not send res down to Knox to prep the deployment for the simple reason, why send res who will have to be paid from a small budget and have less for our deployment.We sent full timers who were being paid anyway. They still won't send res on the prep party, somethings never change.

It seems that we (the Reg Force guys weighing in) have a big lack of facts, and you have the monopoly. What are your experiences with the Reserve world in LFCA or LFWA?

On the project that I'm currenty working on I have many contacts through out the country in the army, i feel most are open minded, both res and reg force in the LFWA and LFQ.

. BTW, I like the slam about the Reg Force people that work with you guys

.We have had rss staff here that were sent to us because they were , well lets say better off with some one else that their reg force unit

Over my 30+ years we have many rss people at my unit. The last 10 years have given the best of the best, the above at in my opinoin some of the most pro-res rss we have ever had, another was WO Brian Brown, he new the Cougar inside and out, I my self learned a great deal from him, and we miss him.
To send Rss to us that were tank trained and new nothing about Cougars was i think a mastake, i may be wrong though.

Al

 

[Infanteer]

Just a note, we might want to watch the 3rd party names and ranks on the open means.   Although well intentioned, it may constitute a PERSEC violation (ie: WO suchandsuch wouldn't want to be discussed on an open forum without his knowledge).

Remember there are alot of eyes on these boards gentlemen....

 

[George Wallace]

People should be a little more courteous in the way they post their points.   If you are going to post a quote, at least do the complete quote, not a partial quote.   The meanings are completely different.   For example:

-The BIGGEST reason that the Reserves will not get Tanks is the fact that tanks are heavy and travel on TRACKS..

This quote does not at all resemble the original:

The BIGGEST reason that the Reserves will not get Tanks is the fact that tanks are heavy and travel on TRACKS.   Tracks tear up roads.   No City, Town or Village in the country would be able to deal with the damage caused by tanks for a prolonged period of time.

I would consider this a form of trolling.

GW

 

[12alfa]

I will not quote bits of quotes in the future, my apoligies.

Did the reg force tanks units operate MBT's on the roads in the area where they were based, as you posted that the res would, was my point. Sometimes I would think, but as a norm i believe it was in the trg areas. Am I wrong in this?

 

[George Wallace]

Where the tanks are based, the roads that they are allowed to use are concrete.   That allows them movement from the tank lines out to the training areas and back.   As some have mentioned Germany stories, they know that the tanks there are required to have 'good' rubber on their pads to move on civilian roads, but still cause serious damage to curbs and such with their end connectors.


GW

 

[Slim]

I will not quote bits of quotes in the future, my apoligies.

Did the reg force tanks units operate MBT's on the roads in the area where they were based, as you posted that the res would, was my point. Sometimes I would think, but as a norm i believe it was in the trg areas. Am I wrong in this?

Regarding this statement.

I was at the LdSH(RC) Freedom Of The City parade for Fort Sask. The panzers were there...Guess what town now needs to repave its main drag! (this was after only 14 tanks) :tank:

 

[12alfa]

Where the tanks are based, the roads that they are allowed to use are concrete.   That allows them movement from the tank lines out to the training areas and back.   As some have mentioned Germany stories, they know that the tanks there are required to have 'good' rubber on their pads to move on civilian roads, but still cause serious damage to curbs and such with their end connectors.


GW

Yes I know the roads in Gagetown and Pet have concret for the tracks. Why would you think as in your previous statement, that if they were in the hands of the res they would be in there home units? As you know we have Cougars at our home units, but move them to the trg area for FTX's. What did you mean by your post? Do you think it would be better to have them stationed at a home unit instead of the trg base like the units do now for   reasons that I'm not aware of?

The Centurions had no rubber, I rember a few cobblestones along the route. I have a video of a M1 turning in a show overthere, and it is a mess, the cobblestones get onto the track and get chewed up in the drive sprocket, it's funney really. But cobblestones are much easer to replace than pavement.

 

[George Wallace]

Actually the Cents did have rubber track pads in the end of their service in Germany.  The M 1s also have rubber track pads, but they wear out and that is when the serious damage is done to roads. 

And why wouldn't I get the impression that the Reserves, in your opinion, shouldn't have the tanks in their home stations/towns?  They would just be taking up valuable space on a CFB that would have to be paid in grant money in lieu of taxes to the local municipality by the Reg Force.  If they are Reserve Kit, than the Reserves will have to house them, or build facilities for them and fund those facilities.  There are Reseve 'Buildings' bought and paid for by the Reserves in Gagetown, and there would have to be more built.

GW

 

[12alfa]

Good points.

Most res units that now hold cougars have the buildings to house them, if not a compound. I see in Gagetown tanks outside under tarps, so I would think that buildings are not required all the time.
We had buildings in Sussex where we had our tanks years ago, now they are gone. Both sqn's have buildings for our AVGP's so it would not be a problem with our unit.

As for buildings on cfb's, if we did get heavy's we would as allways would require support as you do. So the buildings there or new ones, cash and all the support that is attached to the tanks would be given as a package, i would think.

To me this is a non-issue, if given equipment, the arny has "most" times gives us a good form of support for said equipment, I don't think this would change if we were to get new veh's, let alone tanks. Unless you and the others here can tell me that when you got the Leo's that no support was given with them.
I have only the Cougar issue to base my statement on, we did receve support (somewhat small at times) for them.We went as most res units from the iltis to AVGP's with little problems.

Was there problems fron the Lynx sqn's to Leo's with housing?

 

[George Wallace]

Problems arise with structures of buildings.  Can the floors carry the weight of a dozen or more tanks?  Are the doors wide enough to allow tanks through.

The next problem to be faced are the technicians that are required?  As items are removed from the Reg Force inventory, the technicians change also.  Some retire, some move on up to whatever upgrades are required for the new equipment and forget all about the old, some never even trained or aquired skill on the old before the new came in.  When many items leave the Reg Force inventory, all their technical manuals are 'trashed' without thought and this is a major concern for the CF Museums and the Reserve.

Gw

 

[SuperG]

Must have been that Reg Force Course that opened three spots for Reserves, eh Franko??

Don't forget your roots. ;D

 

[Spanky]

I should read this message board more often, since I have been missing a great discussion.  I am a reservist.  I have been in since '75.  I started with recce, switched to cougars, then back to recce.  The way things stand RIGHT NOW, there is no way we can handle leos.  In the past, when there was more money and people, we could have.  We do not have the trained support trades in our unit any more.  Nor do we have the training area, (at least in Windsor)
The reserves have undergone a huge change over the years.  Our training standards are not what they once were. There are many reasons for this, the reg force units and members of the Corps is NOT one of them.
To say that todays reserve lacks dedication is wrong.  Most of our people are very dedicated. We are short of junior officers, we are short of Snr NCOs, and we are short of MCpls.  Those of us who are here MUST be dedicated to put up with the workload and to soldier on.

 

[Sgt Monty]

Hi ye all
You guys are all getting fired up about these things you call tanks. We lost the tanks when we moved out of Lahr. It is not like Al, George, Lance and Frank to get all worked up over anything! I think you so called tankers are all rookies! You are not a real tanker unless you were a CAT gunner. Me, Jeff Stark, Spike Mcquire, and John Little were CAT 81, now that was a good time!
Just kidding guys. I just joined and am in the process of reading all the good messages. And, trying to figure out who the heck all the people are. I would imagine I either know you or you know me from somewhere within the Corp.

Bruce Montrose

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Welcome, Bruce!