Liberal Minority Government 2019 - ????

[NAVCEN]

There's a difference between naive conflict of interest, and actual conscious corruption. From everything I've read, the Trudeaus have been supporters of WE charity for a long time, not because they are giving them kick backs, but because they actually believe it is a good charity. Say what you will about the leadership and governing skills of Prime Minister, but he actually does actauly beleive charity.

I'm not saying there was NOT corruption, I'm just saying you haven't proved to me that they weren't just really stupid in not seeing the conflict of interest here.

Stupidity from the PM is not surprising. Actually I'll be kinder than that, innocence is a more correct term. But that Morneau seems to have never even read the Conflict of Interest documents prior to assuming the role of Minister of Finance.(Charlie Angus asked him the question in committee and Morneau said he can't recall reading it. :facepalm

The WE foundation started off okay but it seems to have turned into a a bit of a personality cult. It now has enough of a stink on it that it is losing sponsors left, right, and centre.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Lumber]

I'm not saying there was NOT corruption, I'm just saying you haven't proved to me that they weren't just really stupid in not seeing the conflict of interest here.
[/quote]

Being "just really stupid" shouldn't be a viable defense legally or morally for our elected officials.

I don't accept "didn't know any better" from children, I shouldn't hold the prime minster to a lower standard than a child.

 

[Lumber]

Being "just really stupid" shouldn't be a viable defense legally or morally for our elected officials.

I don't accept "didn't know any better" from children, I shouldn't hold the prime minster to a lower standard than a child.

Did I say we should excuse them? No. I said put down the pitchforks and stop yelling about corruption and Laurentian elitist cronyism. (not you specifically) Call a spade a spade, don't call it a back-hoe infected with pure evil (bonus points if you get that reference).

 

[Good2Golf]

I am skeptical they didn’t know they were acting around or past the edge of ethical behaviour. Public servants and commercial businesses are held to ethical standards through actual legislation.  Employees of commercial companies can be charged in Canadian courts for unethical behaviour even outside of Canada for contravening the Canadian Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act (Federal Act that tues to the Canadian Criminal Code for enforcement) and serve jail time, so we should expect no less from our elected officials.  Especially when the PM puts it in each Cabinet Minister’s mandate letter, as previously note.

‘Just being stupid’ is absolutely NOT an acceptable excuse for those elected by the people to represent them and disburse their hard earned and heavily taxed dollars responsibly and in full compliance with both legislative and ethical principles.

Stop excusing irresponsible and unethical behaviour. Apologies....especially consistently repeated apologies, do not clear the sheet to allow repeats of such behaviour again and again.

Regards
G2G

 

[Jarnhamar]

Did I say we should excuse them? No.

The problem is so many people ARE ready to. He's too stupid to know any better. It doesn't effect me so I don't care. He's still better than a conservative. It's not like he killed someone.

Corruption is corruption. He's not selling kids on the internet but it's millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars getting used and abused. Friends and friendly companies get rich. It is Laurentian elitism.

"Do better" is the clarion call of the day but as long as we let this stuff happen we aren't doing better.

Call a spade a spade, don't call it a back-hoe infected with pure evil (bonus points if you get that reference).

 

[stellarpanther]

Let me get this straight, in an another thread regarding TD you had no problem telling a CO that they were not entitled to a request due to it not being within the rules. So what is the difference here? The PM and FM both have violated clear rules and regulations of public servants and as you should know , best intentions nor ignorance are valid reasons for breaking those directives. Just because other parties do this is not a reason why we shouldn't hold these officials to account.
This nepotism, scratching of backs and quid pro quo actions of senior ministers have to stop. The general public's faith in government has been on a downward trend for years and actions like this where there are clear violations of directives just cements the public opinion against government.

Shoulder shrugging attitudes like yours does nothing to make government better for the people and enticing better quality people to run for public office.

As far as I know an ethics committee investigation has been launch but I don't believe a ruling has been made.  Since when did it become guilty until proven innocent?  I also don't think it's a big deal, we all get to have an opinion here.  I can just as easily say that attitudes like yours is why there is so much bickering in politics.  Focus on the big stuff and so far from what I've seen this isn't that big of a deal.  I really don't care if the kid of the Finance Minister received a job for it.

 

[NAVCEN]

As far as I know an ethic committee investigation has been launch but I don't believe a ruling has been made.  Since when did it become guilty until proven innocent?  I also don't think it's a big deal, we all get to have an opinion here.  I can just as easily say that attitudes like yours is why there is so much bickering in politics.  Focus on the big stuff and so far from what I've seen this isn't that big of a deal.  If really don't care if the kid of the Finance Minister received a job for it.

1. Both men apologized for their errors. To me that usually means they did wrong. For the PM it's the 3rd time, for Morneau it's his second. I'm seeing a trend here.
2. "Never pass a fault"

 

[stellarpanther]

I suspect there was never any doubt. Respctfully, your eagerness to look the other way and almost gleefully ignore this dishonourable behavior by Trudeau and friends is fuel for corruption in our government.

I've been to some pretty shitty places in the world, I think I'd rather live there than the world you seem to live in. It seems very rotten.

Are you doubting what I say and accusing me of making this stuff up?  Go work at DMCA for 2 years and look at the reports that come in and then look at the decisions.  There are a lot of people on here that may be higher in rank than me and think they know everything and maybe they are very good at there job but that doesn't mean they know everything.  Too many people in the CAF think their rank and position give them more power than they actually have and it pisses me off sometimes to hear.  I make my comments based on what I've seen.  You'd be very surprised what some people do even at the lower ranks and it doesn't cost them there job nor should it necessarily. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Wait...the CAF folks piss you off but the men/women who are in charge of those people dont?

 

[suffolkowner]

For me it's not too hard to pass judgement on this pair, and from what I've read there's enough Liberal MP's willing to go there too they're just waiting on Chrystia Freeland to come onside. Maybe Trudeau and Morneau survive this but this WE charity has got a hell of a stench to it. In the end without a viable Conservative alternative this is what we are stuck with and right now I think the perception is that Conservative party is too far to the right

 

[stellarpanther]

I agree it's the world we're living in.

So if this is the way society is going, do we not have a responsibility to meet societies expectations and meet their wishes?

 

[stellarpanther]

1. Both men apologized for their errors. To me that usually means they did wrong. For the PM it's the 3rd time, for Morneau it's his second. I'm seeing a trend here.
2. "Never pass a fault"

They made a used poor judgement.  That's not the same as unethical behavior.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So if this is the way society is going, do we not have a responsibility to meet societies expectations and meet their wishes?

Nope. History is full of times when societies took wrong turns. Going along with it because everyone else is enables abuse of power, abuse of rights and a whole bunch of other bad things.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Are you doubting what I say and accusing me of making this stuff up? 

The problem is I believe you.
And in saying that I think people with attitudes like yours (that you've expressed here) is why behavior like this continues to happen.

Criticizing military leadership for not knowing the policy/trying to go around it while giving a pass to the Liberals for the same behavior. Same boat as Scheer criticizing politicians for dual citizenship with France.

 

[stellarpanther]

Wait...the CAF folks piss you off but the men/women who are in charge of those people dont?

If you're talking to me can you quote what I said please and then I will comment.

 

[suffolkowner]

They made a used poor judgement.  That's not the same as unethical behavior.

I'm not sure where the line between poor judgement and unethical behaviour is and it's obvious Trudeau and Morneau are having the same problem. Guess what when you constantly make poor judgements maybe there is a deeper problem there like maybe an ethical problem

 

[stellarpanther]

Nope. History is full of times when societies took wrong turns. Going along with it because everyone else is enables abuse of power, abuse of rights and a whole bunch of other bad things.

Maybe you should remember that it's the taxpayer who pays our salary.  If the majority of them want some thing that's how it should be.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Maybe you should remember that it's the taxpayer who pays our salary.  If the majority of them want some thing that's how it should be.

Like the majority of Canadians voted for the Conservatives in the last election?

 

[YZT580]

pardon my 2 cents but aren't these the same liberals who had no difficulty identifying and condemning Harper's people for hitching a ride on a defence helicopter, buying expensive orange juice and renting limousines?  If they can see these faults in others they certainly understand the meaning of conflict of interest.  They just don't believe it applies to them.  The key word was others. And I still want to know where the other 700 million was going to be spent after the students got 200.  Unless someone can find a purpose for all that extra cash that to me may be an even bigger issue.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm not sure where the line between poor judgement and unethical behaviour is and it's obvious Trudeau and Morneau are having the same problem. Guess what when you constantly make poor judgements maybe there is a deeper problem there like maybe an ethical problem

In their case I guarantee they're making these decisions and with the full knowledge of what they're doing is wrong and they're balancing it against the damage control of getting caught offering up a quick apology and counting on the apathy of their voter base.