Loadsa "independents" on the Ballot Discussion (split from PP by-election)

[The Bread Guy]

OK thanks for the info. I will not offer any more opinions until I watch the video above and read up on it. Sounds interesting

New Zealand does it that way (switched in the mid-ish 90's) - here's some go-to's for some real life insights.

What happens in a general election?

General elections decide who represents us in government. New Zealand usually has a general election every 3 years.

elections.nz

New Zealand Politics: A Simplified Guide for New Residents

Explore New Zealand's politics: MMP system, triennial elections, voting process, and main political parties for insightful governance understanding.

www.wisemove.co.nz

What Canada can learn from New Zealand on electoral reform

Unlike Canada’s newly elected House of Commons, New Zealand’s parliament reflects the will of voters. So do other proportional representation systems. Canada has plenty of choice.

theconversation.com

If we're going for electoral reform, remember that Canada is bicameral.

Very good point - NZ only has one chamber.

Maintain a FPTP House, and leverage the Senate to provide regional representation via some method of proportional representation (perhaps half the seats are up for grabs every provincial election, with seats apportioned among the provincial parties).

Cool mix there, but does the Senate have enough real power to make a real difference if it's politically aligned/framed differently than the House?

 

[PuckChaser]

All these "candidates" have the same Official Agent. Would be a shame if people started mailing/sending $1 dollar donations to him for each candidate. By law he has to have separate bank accounts for every candidate, and a whole lot of reporting rules. It'd stop this stupidness really quick.

Political Financing Handbook for Candidates and Official Agents (EC 20155) – February 2025

---

www.elections.ca

 

[Eaglelord17]

I have said it before and I will say it again, electoral reform means nothing if you have no control over the government once elected. The biggest weakness in most Western democracies is the 4 year election cycle and the fact once elected there is no control over the government until the next election. At which point you hope whoever gets elected does what they said they would do (spoiler they don’t).

The Swiss are the only ones doing it right in my opinion, more direct democracy and they can strike down laws with or without the support of the government. Binding referendums and the consent of the governed is key. Maybe add in the ability to recall MPs or even having 1/4 of parliament elected every year to bring some control back to the governed.

We aren’t a bunch of rural farmers who can’t know what is happening in a instant anymore. Covid proved that you can govern from anywhere in the country, which leads me to question why I need a representative when I could represent myself.

 

[lenaitch]

Mixed-member proportional representation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Condensed (and Canadianize) into video:

I've always had a number of problems with the MMP system. As described in the video, ridings would have to get larger, and some of our ridings are so large they can't be reasonably serviced by the member as it is now. How would the 'proportional party' member for a particular riding be chosen? When? By whom? Obviously, their 'constituency' is the party, not the slice of geography they been assigned to. Like we need more party parrots.

How long would be know try results?

Ontario tried to implement it a number of years ago and the way it was described struck me like I was going to be voting only with my left hand, by the light of the moon, while waving a chicken over my head.

I'm a fan of ranked ballots. A lot simpler.

I have said it before and I will say it again, electoral reform means nothing if you have no control over the government once elected. The biggest weakness in most Western democracies is the 4 year election cycle and the fact once elected there is no control over the government until the next election. At which point you hope whoever gets elected does what they said they would do (spoiler they don’t).

The Swiss are the only ones doing it right in my opinion, more direct democracy and they can strike down laws with or without the support of the government. Binding referendums and the consent of the governed is key. Maybe add in the ability to recall MPs or even having 1/4 of parliament elected every year to bring some control back to the governed.

We aren’t a bunch of rural farmers who can’t know what is happening in a instant anymore. Covid proved that you can govern from anywhere in the country, which leads me to question why I need a representative when I could represent myself.

So you want a roughly 27 million-participant plebiscite on every piece of government business?

 

[Good2Golf]

I get that the long ballot can be annoying, but I don't see how it's confusing voters. I'm pretty sure most people go to the polls knowing who they're going to vote for. Just look for the name and check the box. Ignore the rest.

It ain't rocket science.

Those ballots are even arranged alphabetically, so they just have to move their pencil down to the P-O-L-… candidate…

 

[Eaglelord17]

So you want a roughly 27 million-participant plebiscite on every piece of government business?

The major parts, with the option if you gather enough signatures to have referendums on the minor parts too. My preferred system would have lawmakers who do their job in general, but the public can always have the final say. For example the Swiss have to vote to allow the government to levy taxes, they get to vote if they don't like certain laws to have them removed, etc. (for example marijuana likely would have been legalized earlier in Canada if that was the case, same with gay marriage).

As opposed to our current system where you really don't get a say. Even your 'say' to elect a MP means next to nothing as they don't have to do a single thing they said they would, they literally could do nothing for 4 years and you can't do anything about it. That isn't particularly democratic and it doesn't represent the citizenry. All these proposed election 'reforms' run into the same issue, lack of accountability for government and the inability to make the government act in the manner the citizenry wants.

If Switzerland can make it work for over 160 years, why can't we with the most educated population in the world, with access to modern day technology, make it work?

 

[Ludoc]

If Switzerland can make it work for over 160 years, why can't we with the most educated population in the world, with access to modern day technology, make it work?

Women’s suffrage was finally approved by 65.7% of male voters on February 7th 1971.

Yet Swiss women did not have political rights on all levels: women in the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden were not granted cantonal suffrage until the end of 1990 – and not by a vote, but by an order of the Federal Court.

Source

We could probably learn some things from the Swiss system but let's not canonize it. In addition to how they have historically treated women they didn't legalize gay marriage until 3 years ago. I'm not sure everyone that isn't a straight white guy would agree they have been "making it work" any more than any other Western democracy.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Those ballots are even arranged alphabetically, so they just have to move their pencil down to the P-O-L-… candidate…

Yes, by all means, scroll down to POL

from the current alphabetical list of candidates - there's still a few days to close of registration

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Party of Canada
Lorant Polya Independent

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes, by all means, scroll down to POL

from the current alphabetical list of candidates - there's still a few days to close of registration

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Party of Canada
Lorant Polya Independent

Doh! Maybe that’s why I didn’t vote for him last time? I couldn’t spell properly…

 

[The Bread Guy]

Ontario tried to implement it a number of years ago and the way it was described struck me like I was going to be voting only with my left hand, by the light of the moon, while waving a chicken over my head.
I'm a fan of ranked ballots. A lot simpler.

I remember that too - and I’d bet dollars to donuts that the comms effort was … framed to make it look clumsy so people wouldn’t vote for it. I don’t remember anything as clear as the NZ material being out there.

“Hey, we gave people the option, but they seemed to like what we already have.”

 

[Halifax Tar]

Its time for PR electoral reform. Even you hardline conservative types should be on board, as it'll ensure there is never a Liberal majority ever again, beyond a tiny hope. You'll be better represented and you'll ensure politicians actually have to work together.

My issue, as a Conservative, is I want a properly representative HoC and Senate. And I think that's more important than having any party in power. The people need to be represented with the most accuracy possible.

I think the issue you will run into is in Quebec. In a PR system they lose their overrepresentation.

While I personally think that's a good thing the mighty center of Canada disagrees, me thinks.

Personally I'm done with FPTP. It was the #1 reason I voted for JT against Harper. Id like to call a Mulligan on that now.

 

[dapaterson]

My issue, as a Conservative, is I want a properly representative HoC and Senate. And I think that's more important than having any party in power. The people need to be represented with the most accuracy possible.

I think the issue you will run into is in Quebec. In a PR system they lose their overrepresentation.

While I personally think that's a good thing the mighty center of Canada disagrees, me thinks.

Personally I'm done with FPTP. It was the #1 reason I voted for JT against Harper. Id like to call a Mulligan on that now.

Over representation in Canada (federally) begins with PEI having four each senators and MPs.

Kelowna BC has about the same population as PEI (with fewer redheads and higher crime rates).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Over representation in Canada (federally) begins with PEI having four each senators and MPs.

Kelowna BC has about the same population as PEI (with fewer redheads and higher crime rates).

If it were up to me I would combine NS, NB and PEI into one province and put the capitol in Moncton, because its central to everyone.

Having said that PEI, over represented, sure; effect, zero.

Now Quebec on the other hand...

 

[Remius]

If it were up to me I would combine NS, NB and PEI into one province and put the capitol in Moncton, because its central to everyone.

Having said that PEI, over represented, sure; effect, zero.

Now Quebec on the other hand...

Not sure how you figure QC is over represented.

The reality does not match what you are saying.

House of Commons Seat Allocation by Province 2022–2032

Information on the readjustment of electoral boundaries and representation in the House of Commons of Canada.

www.elections.ca

They have 22.5% of the population and 22.9% of the seats.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not sure how you figure QC is over represented.

The reality does not match what you are saying.

House of Commons Seat Allocation by Province 2022–2032

Information on the readjustment of electoral boundaries and representation in the House of Commons of Canada.

www.elections.ca

They have 22.5% of the population and 22.9% of the seats.

You're correct, I am confusing Quebec with the Bloc party. Appreciate the course correction.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Source

We could probably learn some things from the Swiss system but let's not canonize it. In addition to how they have historically treated women they didn't legalize gay marriage until 3 years ago. I'm not sure everyone that isn't a straight white guy would agree they have been "making it work" any more than any other Western democracy.

And we are sooooo much better?

A Brief History of Federal Voting Rights in Canada | Elections Canada's Civic Education

Background information

electionsanddemocracy.ca

Basically until 1960 we didn’t allow natives to vote and until 1982 we could take back voting rights on anyone we chose. Not that far off from the Swiss there, yet apparently our representatives truly have our best interests at heart…

As to the gay marriage point they really aren’t far behind, considering most the rest of the world still hasn’t legalized it and they generally were only a few years behind their neighbours.

Infographic: Where Same-Sex Marriage Is Legal

This chart shows where and since when national laws allow same-sex couples to marry.

www.statista.com

My only question is why you would bring up ‘straight white males’ in a debate about electoral systems? Unless you think injecting sex and race in there will invalidate the other argument. Does gay and female and any race of citizen in Switzerland have equal rights? The answer is yes. So then why would you believe it is inferior to ours?

They also happen to have more rights in general than us thanks to their democratic system, which has also managed to keep themselves out of the wars of the last 2 centuries, and maintained a high standard of living for their citizenry.

Lots that could be taken from their system with the only people disadvantaged by it being the government losing their complete control.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Doh! Maybe that’s why I didn’t vote for him last time? I couldn’t spell properly…

My first thought when I looked at the list of candidates was, surely, the long ballot crowd would have found at least one prankster with the surname Poilievre to run. Turns out it's not that common a name - according to one genealogy website there are only 28 in Canada.

 

[The Bread Guy]

My first thought when I looked at the list of candidates was, surely, the long ballot crowd would have found at least one prankster with the surname Poilievre to run. Turns out it's not that common a name - according to one genealogy website there are only 28 in Canada.

Or at least found one close to, but not exactly like, the spelling

 

[RangerRay]

You can control for that by instituting MMPR. Make it 60 or 70% regional and 40 or 30% list. Better than FPTP.

BC almost chose a mixed proportional system until they learned that it was likely their MLAs and candidates could be all from a community 3 hours away and their ridings would be 5 times larger than they are now.

 

[IKnowNothing]

You're correct, I am confusing Quebec with the Bloc party. Appreciate the course correction.

Which is a whole different kettle of fish. Is that an issue with FPTP and vote efficiency or of limited regional parties? I can convince myself of either/both.