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Logistic Vehicle Modernization Project - Replacing everything from LUVW to SHLVW

I'll leave aside the Reg v ARes side but I think we dismiss equipment out of hand because it's not the best of the line.


Absolutely

This serves as a recce vehicle for many units in the French army - they have over a thousand of them.

1280px-VBL%2C_nouvelles_couleurs_Arm%C3%A9e_de_Terre_%2814_juillet_2021%29_%282%29.jpg

The Germans have built over 500 of this:

500px-Fennek-highres.jpg


By weight and armour they are not far off the Senator family.
Problem with the Fennek is they're fucked up pretty easily by mines. Too low to the ground. The mast system is super cool though.
Obviously no one would send a Senator out as recce for a tank brigade, but a light motorized/mechanized brigade? Maybe even as part of the recce force of a medium LAV brigade?
Agreed. Using one or two LUVs internal to a cav tp would give the tp leader the flexibility to dismount guys when needed. That's how the French do it. 4 Jaguars or Leclercs, 4 VBLs. They also have an internal supply truck to the troop. Pretty unique.

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The problem is recce is a delicate balance of light stealth with just enough armour to feel safe. The aim is to stay out of the fight. Yup there's heavy recce. This isn't that at all. I'm really not sure what the armoured corps really wants anymore.
I may be able to help with that, what do you want clarified? Ill try my best based on my understanding of our new doctrine and what Ive been reading.
 
Not only do the French have over thousand they're still manufacturing them .
As for what the Corps wants to be I suspect that they don't know themselves.
 
Isn't there a role for an armoured second line C&R vehicle on deployment?
Rovers? Transport Coys? Moving specialists around a country inundated with FPV UAVs, cruise missiles, glide bombs, saboteurs etc?

Why were the G-Wagens in Afghanistan armoured? Why was the RG-31 purchased? Didn't some of those vehicles have turrets/RWS systems?

I would surprised to find out that there was no need for an armoured runabout/pickup truck on deployment.

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If such a vehicle were in inventory couldn't it be made available to the reserve units for training?

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With respect to unarmoured versions of the Roshel ....

Ford F550 Van


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Roshel is a custom shop. It happens to specialize in converting commercial trucks into armoured vehicles.
I am sure that Roshel, or any other of the hundreds of shops across Canada, could take the same running gear and frame and mount a conventional sheet metal box conforming to the same configuration as the Roshel (doors, windows, seating).
 
If a reservist feels entitled to a particular brand name vehicle, yes. They need to get over themselves and realize the CAF does not owe them a toy.

No. The CAF does not owe anyone toys.

The CAF owes to Canadians that it buys the equipment that satisfy requirements.

The CAF owes nobody toys, and should not be buying toys.

If you want buy toys, go joint the Frontiersmen or an Airsoft club.
Our difference here is rooted in the terms "entitled" and "toys." You use the terms disparagingly while I use them facetiously. My point is solely that modern war requires equipment and the army has chosen over the decades to neglect to properly equip the ARes except with minor amounts of nondeployable kit.
If you want to be in a professional army, you buy equipment that performs the jobs that you need. These job should be defined by the tasks you are going to do, and not the shiny pictures of some other army riding around in a truck.

The proposals to go buy Senators for the PRes is not based in requirements. The proposals to go buy Senators for the PRes has not presented a complete requirements based argument yet. It just pump money into a politically expedient Canadian company and acquiring something shiny.
It's all too easy to say that it doesn't meet the ARes requirement because no missions of a war-like nature have been given to the ARes. But let's not focus on just the ARes, because in my mind the army needs hybrid organizations which means both RegF and ARes use all equipment in the inventory.
"Lots of people are doing this" is a bad/dangerous reason to do something. Lots of armies are using T72s, but we don't want to go buy those.
Actually it is a reason which should generate thought as to why and how they are used. In many cases cost is an issue and cost is something that an army needs to take into consideration when it wants to develop mass. Canada has spent billions for years and all it can show in land equipment is six weak LAV battalions and a handful of tanks for what it has the gall to call on paper 5 divisions. I won't even get into all the other missing or grossly underequipped capabilities.

Give me a break. How long will this sham continue to be foisted on the Canadian public.
The Senator is excessive to needs for of a pure training vehicle, but it will get infantry killed if we try to send them to war in it ... of course, the proposal was that we buy Senator for PRes cavalry and that role will kill even more Canadians. If we need the PRes to have a vehicle that they are only going to use for training, then buy something without armour (you can buy comms & RWS with the money not spent on extraneous armour). If we need the PRes to have a vehicle that they can also take to war, then buy a proper war fighting vehicle. Don't buy anybody toys ... not even if it looks shiny or is "third tier"
I've stood on record for years as buying zero "training" kit for the ARes. I don't consider a Senator or a Senator-like vehicle as "training kit." I expect it to be fully deployable BUT IN A ROLE COMENSURATE for what it is. It could work in dozens of rear area jobs including light battalions patrolling the security zone. Vehicles for headquarters and air defence batteries. Vehicles for both horizontal and vertical construction companies. Vehicles for headquarters above bde level. Vehicles for many CSS tasks together with appropriate logistics vehicles etc. Anywhere a LUVW lives now, a Senator model would take up the work. remember this is a log veh thread.

But, could I see Senators do some work with cavalry? Why not? But the real question that you need to ask is what army do you see Canada fielding when it has to go "all in?" And how do you equip it - all of it RegF and ARes - before you have to go "all in?" Right now its got bugger all which means that "all in" is three and one half raggedy brigades and nothing behind those . . . at all . . . except a bunch of TAPVs unconfigured for a real recce role. And, even worse, its got nothing on the books for downstream.

"Professional" Armour has had problems ever since it divested the Lynx and Leo C1. It took a long time to figure out how to use the smaller number of Coyotes and now half as many LRSS. TAPVs augment this but to no one's satisfaction. I'm with @GK .Dundas - buy a bunch of surplus French VBLs to work with the LRSS. They're probably cheaper than Senators anyway. You don't have the time to find the "perfect toy" that will satisfy the RegF.

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Not only do the French have over thousand they're still manufacturing them .
As for what the Corps wants to be I suspect that they don't know themselves.

The French Army version of the VBL is equipped with a Peugeot XD3T turbo-diesel engine. This engine is used on many civilian cars, such as the Peugeot 505, Peugeot 605 and Talbot Tagora. The VBL used many other standard civilian components, too. Its 71 kilowatts (95 hp) power and 22.0 kW/t (29.5 hp/t) power ratio enable the VBL to drive at 95 km/h (59 mph). It has a fuel consumption of 16 L/100 km (18 mpg‑imp; 15 mpg‑US). Its range of 600 km (370 mi) can be extended to 800 km (500 mi) by two external fuel tanks. Designed to be lighter than 3.5 t (3.9 short tons), the mass of the VBL has increased to 4 t (4.4 short tons) due to the addition of more weapons, armour and systems. The VBL is fully amphibious with a speed of 5.4 km/h (3.4 mph) in water; it is also air transportable by C-130, C-160, Il-76 and A400M. It can be transported underslung by larger helicopters, such as the AS332 Super Puma, and may also be para-dropped.


The RG-31 is based on a UNIMOG chassis. It is built from a V-shaped all-steel welded armor monocoque hull and high suspension, typical of South African mine protected vehicles, providing excellent small-arms and mine blast protection. The vehicle is designed to resist a blast equivalent to two TM-57 anti-tank mines detonating simultaneously. The RG-31 is classified by the United States Department of Defense as a category 1 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle.


France makes its vehicles domestically out of political preference

South Africa made its vehicles out of political isolation. South Africa's MRAP conversions pretty much set the standard for the Iraqi/Afghan MRAPs, nearly all of which were built on civilian chassis.

 
Our difference here is rooted in the terms "entitled" and "toys." You use the terms disparagingly while I use them facetiously. My point is solely that modern war requires equipment and the army has chosen over the decades to properly equip the ARes except with minor amounts of nondeployable kit.

It's all too easy to say that it doesn't meet the ARes requirement because no missions of a war-like nature have been given to the ARes. But let's not focus on just the ARes, because in my mind the army needs hybrid organizations which means both RegF and ARes use all equipment in the inventory.

Actually it is a reason which should generate thought as to why and how they are used. In many cases cost is an issue and cost is something that an army needs to take into consideration when it wants to develop mass. Canada has spent billions for years and all it can show in land equipment is six weak LAV battalions and a handful of tanks for what it has the gall to call on paper 5 divisions. I won't even get into all the other missing or grossly underequipped capabilities.

Give me a break. How long will this sham continue to be foisted on the Canadian public.

I've stood on record for years as buying zero "training" kit for the ARes. I don't consider a Senator or a Senator-like vehicle as "training kit." I expect it to be fully deployable BUT IN A ROLE COMENSURATE for what it is. It could work in dozens of rear area jobs including light battalions patrolling the security zone. Vehicles for headquarters and air defence batteries. Vehicles for both horizontal and vertical construction companies. Vehicles for headquarters above bde level. Vehicles for many CSS tasks together with appropriate logistics vehicles etc. Anywhere a LUVW lives now, a Senator model would take up the work. remember this is a log veh thread.

But, could I see Senators do some work with cavalry? Why not? But the real question that you need to ask is what army do you see Canada fielding when it has to go "all in?" And how do you equip it - all of it RegF and ARes - before you have to go "all in?" Right now its got bugger all which means that "all in" is three and one half raggedy brigades and nothing behind those . . . at all . . . except a bunch of TAPVs unconfigured for a real recce role. And, even worse, its got nothing on the books for downstream.

"Professional" Armour has had problems ever since it divested the Lynx and Leo C1. It took a long time to figure out how to use the smaller number of Coyotes and now half as many LRSS. TAPVs augment this but to no one's satisfaction. I'm with @GK .Dundas - buy a bunch of surplus French VBLs to work with the LRSS. They're probably cheaper than Senators anyway. You don't have the time to find the "perfect toy" that will satisfy the RegF.

🍻
Actually the assembly line the last time I checked the line was still running if at low rate of production.
 
Nuvver example

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In early 1996, Perry Engineering produced a prototype Bushmaster, based on an Irish designed Timoney Technologies MP44, including the Rockwell/Timoney independent suspension, and with US company Stewart & Stevenson components from the Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV). Over 65% of the components by Stewart & Stevenson were from the FMTV including engine, transmission, steering, instrumentation, electrical and pneumatic systems. The prototype was built in less than seven months.


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Doesn't appear to be a lot of magic.

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PS The truck on which the Bushmaster is based is the Steyr 12M18

The Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV) are a series of military vehicles based upon a common chassis, varying by payload and mission requirements. The FMTV is derived from the Austrian Steyr 12M18 truck, but substantially modified to meet United States Army requirements. These include a minimum 50 percent U.S. content

From the all-wheel drive 91, the militarized 91M was also developed. Appearing in 1983, this met with considerable sales success. Aside from Austria (which used e.g. the 1491 as a Heavy Logistics Vehicle or Counter-NBC-Vehicle), Canada, Saudi Arabia, and Greece also used these. The 1200 vehicles sold to Canada, designated "Heavy Logistics Vehicle, Wheeled" or HLVW by the Canadian military, were called "Percheron" (or UTDC 24M32) and were assembled by local partner UTDC (Can-Car). They entered service there in 1990 after a protracted selection process. It was also manufactured in Greece, where the earlier 680 series was manufactured until the end of 1984. Steyr also entered the US Army's competition for a new Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV), a contract they won. The trucks in question have been manufactured in Texas, using Steyr components, including engines and some body panels (actually those from the 92 series). The FMTV has seen service across the globe, with a number of countries' armed forces.

So the Aussie Bushmaster is related to the Canadian HLVW by way of the US FMTV.
 
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1750474396171.png with the Garibaldi brigade of the Bersaglieri.

Known in British service as the Panther Command and Liaison vehicle. Also in Ukrainian service, 380 donated by Belgium.
 
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