Major Reform Within the CF Recruting system

[JBC]

I believe that in general the way the CF recruits is counter productive.Very rarely have I heard of a reg force candidate who waited less than 4 months to be sworn in and placed on basic training at CFLRS....alot can happen in four months. Yes, security, medical etc. are all   important but really, does it take four months to figure if Jimmy or Sally is GTG??? Within the reserves (an excellent entry point for further reg force service) a solider can expect to wait up to 3 months for a component transfer.

Speaking of reserve recruitment wasn't this once a locally controlled programme? Sure back in the day but why couldn't it be that way again??   I was recruited as a reservist, and now am reg force attending RMC. I'll be honest, the first time I walked into my local CFRC I was treated like a second rate citizen, as I was "only" a reserve candidate, they didn't have the time of day for me. Fine. If they do not want to deal with reserve apps, let the units handle it and send candidates in only for the med exam. Keep the interviews, and physical fitness tests local. As for security clearance, set up a hub to process reserve applications only, Im sure it would make the units happier.

Cheers

 

[Butters]

Well, I get sworn in on the 27th and fly into St.Jean by feb.8th  my process was only 5 and a half months

 

[jarko]

butters your lucky man, been waiting 6 months so far and looks like i will have to wait till the next selection board since only francos where selected this time  :rage:

 

[StormTrooper]

It's been almost 2 years since the day I walked into the RC. Still waiting for the results on the background check. Yes.. Pretty sad..  :rage:

 

[kincanucks]

It's been almost 2 years since the day I walked into the RC. Still waiting for the results on the background check. Yes.. Pretty sad..   :rage:

Background check or pre enrolment security check?  It does not take two years to do an initial check even if you killed someone.

 

[kincanucks]

I believe that in general the way the CF recruits is counter productive.Very rarely have I heard of a reg force candidate who waited less than 4 months to be sworn in and placed on basic training at CFLRS....alot can happen in four months. Yes, security, medical etc. are all   important but really, does it take four months to figure if Jimmy or Sally is GTG??? Within the reserves (an excellent entry point for further reg force service) a solider can expect to wait up to 3 months for a component transfer.

Speaking of reserve recruitment wasn't this once a locally controlled programme? Sure back in the day but why couldn't it be that way again??   I was recruited as a reservist, and now am reg force attending RMC. I'll be honest, the first time I walked into my local CFRC I was treated like a second rate citizen, as I was "only" a reserve candidate, they didn't have the time of day for me. Fine. If they do not want to deal with reserve apps, let the units handle it and send candidates in only for the med exam. Keep the interviews, and physical fitness tests local. As for security clearance, set up a hub to process reserve applications only, Im sure it would make the units happier.

Cheers

Why do you think the reserves don't do their own interviewing, CFAT testing and drug screening.  Because there needs to be a honest broker, the RC, involved to ensure that the applicants are all being processed in a transparent and fair manner.  How easy would it be for a reserve unit to help their applicants along to ensure their numbers are being met.  I am not saying that it would happen all the time but with some reserve units now coaching their applicants for the drug screening, it would probably happen too often.  Remember a lot of reservists eventually want to CT and we want to make sure that they were processed fairly in the beginning.  As I have harped upon before in this forum, if you want complain to somebody about the recruiting system and the perceived slowness then call/write your local MP and tell them there needs to be more people working in CFRG Med, CFRC/Ds and in the security cell in Ottawa.  Cheers. 

 

[Enzo]

King... Do you feel that the CFRCs inefficiencies would be alleviated by an increase in personnel? What about a revision/streamlining of the recruitment process itself? I see many new computers in my local det. How about setting goals to process recruits as "quickly" and "efficiently" as possible?

Do you feel that the recruiting process in the CF is currently a good one? Any other nations (of comparable abilities and budgets) who are doing it better? (Pointing to the US isn't accurate in relation to Canada; they're much larger, have incredible resources and needs and apparently they're currently involved in a war? I don't question their logistics, only their political terminology)

I'm simply curious as to your opinion regarding some of the issues presented by these potential recruits; since you're involved on the other side of the desk.

BTW, my MP enjoys my rants and knows exactly how I feel about the CFRC. If I could get everyone else in my riding to join in a healthy rendition of Kuumbaya, then I'm certain that the CF (and the world) would be a better place. Problem is, I don't know the words...

 

[Horse_Soldier]

Why do you think the reserves don't do their own interviewing, CFAT testing and drug screening.   Because there needs to be a honest broker, the RC, involved to ensure that the applicants are all being processed in a transparent and fair manner.   How easy would it be for a reserve unit to help their applicants along to ensure their numbers are being met.   I am not saying that it would happen all the time but with some reserve units now coaching their applicants for the drug screening, it would probably happen too often.   Remember a lot of reservists eventually want to CT and we want to make sure that they were processed fairly in the beginning.   As I have harped upon before in this forum, if you want complain to somebody about the recruiting system and the perceived slowness then call/write your local MP and tell them there needs to be more people working in CFRG Med, CFRC/Ds and in the security cell in Ottawa.   Cheers.    

This logic would be acceptable, if the local RC actually gave a fuck about the reserve units - which it doesn't.  Recruiting has gone downhill since most of the work was pulled out of the units.  Okay - the system doesn't have enough people - but that doesn't excuse the general laziness, incompetence and bureaucratic mindset we face.  Our unit has tried time and again to help the RC speed up the process by trying to maximize the efficiency of the portions that are actually under RC control, only to be told that the RC doesn't want to do it - read the RC staff can't be bothered to work one evening every 2-4 weeks to help out the half-dozen reserve units in town.  It's all right to cry for more people working in CFRG, but when the people already there don't want to do that little extra that can really make things work better, all I can say is it's time to put a bullet in the current system and build something rational - and perhaps get rid of some of the deadwood that doesn't want to even try.  And as a serving officer, if I write to my MP about this, you can be sure the chain of command will come down on me like a ton of bricks, so your advice is useless.  The recruiting system needs to be reformed from the inside, starting with the people in the RC actually giving a damn about the reserve units they're supposed to serve.

 

[pbi]

As I have harped upon before in this forum, if you want complain to somebody about the recruiting system and the perceived slowness then call/write your local MP and tell them there needs to be more people working in CFRG Med, CFRC/Ds and in the security cell in Ottawa.  Cheers.   

It's already long past that state. These complaints have been raised politically by the Minister's Monitoring Committee, by SCONDVA and IIRC by Res2000. The Area Commanders have also raised them to the CLS, so it's been put forward on both the political and chain of command nets, yet mysteriously the complaints do not appear to go away. Cheers

 

[pbi]

And as a serving officer, if I write to my MP about this, you can be sure the chain of command will come down on me like a ton of bricks, so your advice is useless

 

If you're a serving Class A Res officer, this isn't really true. Unless you write the letter at such time as you are subject to the Code of Service Discipline, or in writing it somehow violate the law of Canada (unlikely...) you are able to exercise that great right Class A Res soldiers have: to be able to speak freely when they are in "civilian mode". Anybody who takes action against you if act under those conditions is out of line. Now: I'm not urging you to embarass the military or say trashy things, but facts are facts. Even serving RegF personnel are free to state facts, as long as they stay in their lane. Just make sure what you're saying is factual not anecdotal.

As for the RCs not caring about the Res units, I'd say that depends on the RC. Our bde maintains a very close working relationship with our CFRC and its dets, through our G1 Branch. This allows us to investigate unit complaints more effectively. We still have problems, but at least we can have a "face to face" to get things sorted out.While we have certainly found some rather shocking examples of incompetence and bad intent on the part of a very few CFRC staff in the past, I do not think that is presently the case. IMHO the real problem reside further up the chain, especially in the medical review bottleneck.

Cheers.

 

[copecowboy]

butters your lucky man, been waiting 6 months so far and looks like i will have to wait till the next selection board since only francos where selected this time  :rage:

been a year for me,they lost my medical at first, since I only made the merit list as average Ill have a few more months to wait.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

 
As for the RCs not caring about the Res units, I'd say that depends on the RC. Our bde maintains a very close working relationship with our CFRC and its dets, through our G1 Branch. This allows us to investigate unit complaints more effectively. We still have problems, but at least we can have a "face to face" to get things sorted out.While we have certainly found some rather shocking examples of incompetence and bad intent on the part of a very few CFRC staff in the past, I do not think that is presently the case. IMHO the real problem reside further up the chain, especially in the medical review bottleneck.

Cheers.

Consider yourselves lucky.  We've had more than enough face to face meetings to realize that there is no will at all across the table.  Every, and I mean every suggestion we made to help the RC (which would have meant much more work for us than for them) was shot down without much discussion.  Our bde HQ tried to get the local RC more sensitized about the issues, but the G1 Recruiting got shot down just like unit staff did.  Whether it's bad intent or just a case of "I don't give a fuck", the end result is the same - there is no will to help the reserve units.  I'll stand by my comments.  I oversee recruiting and BMQ training in our unit, I've had to deal with the fallout of the RC not performing all too much.

 

[JBC]

     
    As an ex-pl comd trying to bring in soldiers for my own platoon I share your frustrations, and I was only exposed to it for a year having worked very closely with my unit recruting officer . As to solving the problem I think there merit in converting the entire initial application process to some form of electronic version. In fact I believe this process has already begun at some CFRC locations but only for the converson of existing pers file info. Using this same model for application, candidates could apply online at a central CFRC web site which would then re-rout the info to the local CFRC, who would could then make contact with the applicant. Bada bing bada boom.

     This would save mutiple long postage waits...the classic collecting of dust on peoples desk, and trips to local armouries (where I admit foul ups can occurr also) and CFRC locations. There would be less hassle of dealing with serval different forms, less chance of loss, and make it easier to prioritize applications.

     As for submitting copies of birth certificate, SIN Card and Health Cards, I'm not sure how to deal with this one. Perhaps bring them to the interview and med exam? However I still say that it should be left to local units to take care of their own, and I find it difficult to believe that units are "coaching their candiates on drug screening." For the West Nova Scotia Regiment at least, that's quite absurd.

 

[MikeM]

In regards to the component transfer comment made in the initial post, 3 months is a VERY quick time for a CT. I am planning on doing one for RegF soon, and I have been told it will take 6-8 months.

 

[kincanucks]

King... Do you feel that the CFRCs inefficiencies would be alleviated by an increase in personnel? What about a revision/streamlining of the recruitment process itself? I see many new computers in my local det. How about setting goals to process recruits as "quickly" and "efficiently" as possible?

Do you feel that the recruiting process in the CF is currently a good one? Any other nations (of comparable abilities and budgets) who are doing it better? (Pointing to the US isn't accurate in relation to Canada; they're much larger, have incredible resources and needs and apparently they're currently involved in a war? I don't question their logistics, only their political terminology)

I'm simply curious as to your opinion regarding some of the issues presented by these potential recruits; since you're involved on the other side of the desk.

BTW, my MP enjoys my rants and knows exactly how I feel about the CFRC. If I could get everyone else in my riding to join in a healthy rendition of Kuumbaya, then I'm certain that the CF (and the world) would be a better place. Problem is, I don't know the words...

Yes I do think more people would help.  Not necessarily in CFRC/Ds as they are cramped enough now but definitely in CFRG Med and in the security cell.  The processing system is constantly under scrutiny and has changed many times since I have been involved.  The problem is that we can cut out only so much because at the end of the day we need medically and physically fit and clean people and again, we are getting them.  An example of streamlining the process is the reserve medical trial but that has done little because for some reason young people have more medical issues than ever before.  Personally, I would love to have a two storey office building with a hundred people working for me.  That way nobody would have anything to complain about but wait there still would be people waiting for their medical and security checks to be done.

I have been told that our countries have looked at our system and found it to be good and we have looked at others and found parts of theirs to be good.  Some changes that have been adapted is the training for new recruiting personnel.

I am truly sorry that some potential recruits on this site are having such a hard time completing the process but unfortunately that is a fact of life as if it was easy than it would not be worth doing.  At the end of the year we have met our quota of healthy, physically fit, clean and smart recruits.  A lot of people complain about the way some CFRC/Ds handle reserve files but remember that we handle a lot of other files (ROTP, DEO, Reg F NCMs, CIC, etc) and some files have priority over others at different times of the year.

Can there be more done?  Sure there can be and the system is always under review.

 

[kincanucks]

This logic would be acceptable, if the local RC actually gave a **** about the reserve units - which it doesn't.   Recruiting has gone downhill since most of the work was pulled out of the units.   Okay - the system doesn't have enough people - but that doesn't excuse the general laziness, incompetence and bureaucratic mindset we face.   Our unit has tried time and again to help the RC speed up the process by trying to maximize the efficiency of the portions that are actually under RC control, only to be told that the RC doesn't want to do it - read the RC staff can't be bothered to work one evening every 2-4 weeks to help out the half-dozen reserve units in town.   It's all right to cry for more people working in CFRG, but when the people already there don't want to do that little extra that can really make things work better, all I can say is it's time to put a bullet in the current system and build something rational - and perhaps get rid of some of the deadwood that doesn't want to even try.   And as a serving officer, if I write to my MP about this, you can be sure the chain of command will come down on me like a ton of bricks, so your advice is useless.   The recruiting system needs to be reformed from the inside, starting with the people in the RC actually giving a darn about the reserve units they're supposed to serve.

If you have problems with your local RC, what is your chain of command doing about it?   Or have you bothered to push it up yet?

I would be interested in exactly what you have offered to provide the RC with?   Qualified medical staff? Qualified MCCs?   Qualified recruiters?   Qualified file managers? Qualified data inputters? or just Qualfied cleaners?

We have on many times open our doors on weekends and evenings to help the local reserve units and have processed many of their applicants this way.   But many times I have heard "nope sorry can't make it." or "nope sorry the files are not ready yet".   Reserve units that want to get their files processed on a timely basis should try getting them in earlier in the year and not trying to push them through in a gigantic bunch two weeks before BMQ.   But in a lot of cases reserve recruiters don't chase down their apllicants for the required information and files sit in their offices for months.   Or how about the many complaints I see on this site about how many times applicants have tried to get a hold of their reserve recruiters?   I can see it now giving the reserve units the ability to process their own applicants and ending up with unfit applicants and frustrated applicants who can't get a hold of you.

Oh and I have a surprise for you.   RCs process more than reserve files and sometimes you are not the priority.

 

[P Kaye]

I actually had a good experience with the Kitchener detachment of CFRC Hamilton, when I went through the process in Summer 2003.
I applied in May, and was sworn-in at the reserve unit on Oct 3.  The CFRC officer who interviewed me was a class B reservist from the unit I was joining.  I never felt like a second-class citizen, being a reserve applicant.
I was in a bad car accident about 11 years ago, so that delayed my medical, which amounted to an overal delay of probably about 1 month.  Other than that, things went really smoothly.
I kept phoning them, to find out what stage the application was at.
When i hear all these horror stories of 6 months, or two-years... I think I was very lucky.  Either that, or CFRC Detachment Kitchener was just extremely efficient.

 

[Enzo]

King, re: Pre-security checks. Which department is responsible for those. I've been told that if I leave the country, it'll take 2-3 years to clear me from the time of my return. I'm still waiting for the results from my Cayman time two years ago as an example. I've been told that another department (PM2? Something like that? I dunno, the acronym wasn't spelled out) is responsible for carrying out these security checks prior to acceptance to the CF, and that the CFRC is NOT responsible.

Seems that you have a valid point. Increase the manpower to Security and Med depts. And turn over presecurity screening to VISA, they're everywhere you want to be.

 

[kincanucks]

King, re: Pre-security checks. Which department is responsible for those. I've been told that if I leave the country, it'll take 2-3 years to clear me from the time of my return. I'm still waiting for the results from my Cayman time two years ago as an example. I've been told that another department (PM2? Something like that? I dunno, the acronym wasn't spelled out) is responsible for carrying out these security checks prior to acceptance to the CF, and that the CFRC is NOT responsible.

Seems that you have a valid point. Increase the manpower to Security and Med depts. And turn over presecurity screening to VISA, they're everywhere you want to be.

Deputy Provost Marshall Security 2 (DPM Sec 2) conducts the Enhanced Reliability Checks (the criminal and credit portion) and they conduct the pre-enrolment security clearances.  They use the RCMP and CSIS to conduct the checks.  Pre-enrolment security clearances can take a very long time and it is mostly due to the volume that CSIS/RCMP has to deal with.  I have one applicant who has waited for a year and he was in the states for 9 months.  Post 9-11 is a bitch.

 

[Enzo]

I'm sorry that the US was targeted by a dedicated faction of zealots and a weakness within their own domestic airline security was exploited for the absolute worst; but honestly, we need to stop buying into this inane BS before we cripple ourselves. I am not a terrorist, I do not know any terrorists and my friends and family have never met a terrorist. How many CANADIANS can say the same thing? About 99%, give or take a couple of people. Do we need to have stringent, responsible security? Yes. Is it reasonable to expect Canadian citizens to sit around for up to 2 years while a PRE security check is administered?? NO!!! How long does a 10 yr security check for ones security clearance when they're in take? Mine didn't take 2 bloody years, oh sorry, that was in 1998, the world was a SAFER place? My ass it was. This is politically expediated BS and its hurting the CF as NON-Terrorist, Canadian citizens who are qualified decide to choose an alternate lifestyle/career rather than wait for the years to pass while a pre-security/medical/whatever is sorted out by an overworked and unmotivated staff.

Getting the best people you can within a reasonable time frame, efficient.
Screening out the Terrorists, Valuable.
Doing so in such a time frame as to nurture one's own military, priceless.

Write you MP, tell friends and family to do so also. Seems DPM2 needs a few more people since <3 yrs for a pre-secure (depending upon your situation) is a little unreasonable.

PS

And that nonsense about being committed by waiting for the process to trundle to its natural conclusion is BS. Asking a candidate to wait <1 (if they're lucky) - 2 yrs+ before they're off to St. Jean, is not something to be proud of, its bureacratic/political inefficiency at its worst and it annoys me to know end. The longest anyone in this day and age should have to wait is 1 year max, where is the reform to bring in a reasonable time frame? Candidates are people, the arrogance of such a mindset is maddening.