Mandatory Service in Canada (split fm Ukraine - Superthread)

[Brad Sallows]

If the answer to "why, really, is conscription/service necessary" is "cultural exposure/indoctrination", proponents have fallen into a deep hole.

So: why, really, is conscription/service necessary?

 

[Kilted]

The same can be said about the Canadian Cadet/Junior Canadian Rangers Organizations. Some of the best people I have met in Canadian society have passed through these youth organizations.

And yet the majority of former Cadets hide the fact that they were Cadets when they join the CA

Canada didn't have a conscription crisis per se until it started sending conscripts over seas. Home service conscription was a lot less problematic, even in Quebec.

Sefl-Defence is an easy sell. We just don't seem to be able to convince ourselves that Self-Defence is necessary. In fact, I will go farther. I get the impression that many regulars are adamantly opposed to a Self-Defence Force because

And it would also create a new class of soldier that would not necessarily be treated very well by everyone else. If you think we have harrassment issues now, just wait.

 

[Kirkhill]

That won't do. Imposing a cost on others that we have escaped is basically climbing the ladder and pulling part of it up behind us. Starting a career or advanced education earlier has compounding advantages over a lifetime.

"Opportunity cost" by definition means something was bought. It doesn't mean it was a wise purchase. Noting that something was paid for just affirms the definition.

Low value make-work (underemployment, misemployment) - even during periods of low unemployment - is a hindrance, not an advantage.

Canada doesn't have the luxury of pissing government revenue away on sub-optimal centrally-planned underemployment schemes that delay people from getting on with their lives. No amount of candy-stripers is going to help people facing delayed treatments for cancer.

My daughter graduated from Nursing school two years ago during the Great Pandemic.

In Washington State - all senior class doctors and graduating nurses were immediately pressed into paid service to man the hospitals. In my opinion a reasonable course of action.

In Canada - my daughter is in her second year as a barista at Starbucks and contemplating a career in management. The health budget wont support more nurses or doctors.

There is some hiring going on but only for experienced nurses....

And, in the meantime, I am waiting for my sciatica to heal up enough for me to make the trip to see my doctor to get a pain relief programme started.

A year of government subsidized experience as a nurse would likely have gone a long way. Call it an apprenticeship programme if you like.

 

[Kirkhill]

And yet the majority of former Cadets hide the fact that they were Cadets when they join the CA

And it would also create a new class of soldier that would not necessarily be treated very well by everyone else. If you think we have harrassment issues now, just wait.

We do have a separate class of soldier. They are called Reserves. The Total Force concept seems to be honoured more in the breach than the observance.

By all means separate the Regs from the Conscripts. On the other hand there is, IMO, an exploitable opportunity with the Reserves to create a work-experience programme in conjunction with the school years.

 

[Kilted]

We do have a separate class of soldier. They are called Reserves. The Total Force concept seems to be honoured more in the breach than the observance.

By all means separate the Regs from the Conscripts. On the other hand there is, IMO, an exploitable opportunity with the Reserves to create a work-experience programme in conjunction with the school years.

I was suggesting that there would be a volunteer/ conscript divide in both the regular and reserve force.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A year of government subsidized experience as a nurse

A year of paid work in a profession/occupation a person has trained for and wants to enter isn't particularly comparable to being conscripted into something a person is unwilling to do.

 

[Kirkhill]

I was suggesting that there would be a volunteer/ conscript divide in both the regular and reserve force.

I am suggesting that the "Militia" would just be one possible form of National Service outlet. That other youngsters might choose other forms of service to the community and benefit from the work experience and the exposure to other people.

That is more in keeping with what National Service has come to mean in Europe.

Everybody shares in National Service and gets to pick their own slot. Compulsion is well down the list.

In Denmark everyone is liable to conscription but only a few are selected each year consequently there are more "volunteer" conscripts than the ranks need. At the same time people are volunteering to learn how to soldier on their own time in the upaid Home Guard.

Other people join other organizations that don't require them to train to kill.

 

[Kirkhill]

A year of paid work in a profession/occupation a person has trained for and wants to enter isn't particularly comparable to being conscripted into something a person is unwilling to do.

See my response to Kilted - conscription doesn't have to equal compulsion.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If someone wants the job, it's not conscription. And if someone doesn't want the job and refuses to do it and there's no compulsion...what then?

 

[Kilted]

If someone wants the job, it's not conscription. And if someone doesn't want the job and refuses to do it and there's no compulsion...what then?

Don't some countries put that person in jail for the length of their service?

 

[Brad Sallows]

I count threat of imprisonment as "compulsion".

 

[OldSolduer]

And yet the majority of former Cadets hide the fact that they were Cadets when they join the CAF.

Because they are treated with derision.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Because they are treated with derision.

Exactly this.

 

[OldSolduer]

Exactly this.

I should add mainly by course staff on BMQ etc.

There’s no room for this bullshit when the CAF is crying for soldiers

 

[The Bread Guy]

We do have a separate class of soldier. They are called Reserves. The Total Force concept seems to be honoured more in the breach than the observance.

By all means separate the Regs from the Conscripts. On the other hand there is, IMO, an exploitable opportunity with the Reserves to create a work-experience programme in conjunction with the school years.

Ah, so cast the "must be in whether they like it or not" folks in with the Reserves? Those more cynical than me would say that's a bit of a "let the peasants deal with them" approach - if this is such a critical task, why would the Reg Force not be involved?

I kid, but a hyperbolic way to show that culture's a pretty sticky thing to unstick.

... why, really, is conscription/service necessary?

This right here. Before sorting out "how?", need to have a generally-agreed-to "why?"

If it's to beef up Canada's defences, there'd be a certain number of "how" options, depending on what the consensus is re: what we're defending against.

If it's to teach work ethic, teamwork & exposing folks to different parts of Canada and different Canadians, different how's (with some overlap with the former).

If it's to fill essential services not being done now, yet another "how".

 

[OldSolduer]

Read the history of conscription in Canada during WW 2.

"Not necessarily conscription, conscription if necessary" PM William Lyon McKenzie King uttered those words (or something like that) in Parliament.

It won't happen here. Ever. Canadians could not care less - unless their homes are being threatened by floods or fires.

 

[dangerboy]

It would be political suicide for any party that tried to introduce it.

 

[brihard]

It would be political suicide for any party that tried to introduce it.

It would also be blatantly illegal under the Charter, unless they used the Notwithstanding clause- and even at that there could still be a few ways to leverage s.6 (which cannot be ‘notwithstood’).

 

[KevinB]

It would also be blatantly illegal under the Charter, unless they used the Notwithstanding clause- and even at that there could still be a few ways to leverage s.6 (which cannot be ‘notwithstood’).

Arguable If it applies to everyone.

 

[OldSolduer]

Arguable If it applies to everyone.

When Canada conscripted soldiers in WW2 it caused a political nightmare. The conscripted could not be sent on operations - war - overseas. They had to volunteer to be sent. The ones who didn't volunteer were nicknamed "zombies" and were not very well treated by those on active service.

I am not for conscription in any way, shape or form.