Mandatory Service in Canada (split fm Ukraine - Superthread)

[The Bread Guy]

... The shame is we have no Ukrainian plan.

The question also has to be asked, though: how likely is it we'll need to have (proportionately by population) 830,000 Canadians trained to fight off invaders? Always good to have more and better when it comes to protecting ourselves, but is this what's needed?

 

[Skysix]

The question also has to be asked, though: how likely is it we'll need to have (proportionately by population) 830,000 Canadians trained to fight off invaders? Always good to have more and better when it comes to protecting ourselves, but is this what's needed?

Ask Finland. Israel. Ukraine.

There are other societal benefits of gap-year service, be it military, civil defense emergency services or community support. If every citizen of every gender was required to do that 14 month (July after grad until August before college, university, work or family begins cohesion is developed that will reduce a lot of the tribalism (ethnic race or nationality based) present in most multicultural societies.

Nevermind just the Starship Trooper-like franchise (although it has it attractions...) it gives individuals a chance to experience a little bit of real (non academic) life, develop a work ethic, discover their abilities/desires/hates, and provide a whole population entry-level skill pool to call up if needed and refresh/upgrade/specialise.

But no exemptions for the connected etc. EVERYBODY serves in some capacity appropriate to their physical and mental capabilities with an apptitude evaluation based sorting into what type of service done before choice of specific trades etc is allowed.

 

[KevinB]

Service equals citizenship

 

[Skysix]

Service equals citizenship

And access to social support services. Earned not entitled.

No proof exists (that I am aware of) that there will be a higher % of the population voting or that it will be any more informed, but after having been gifted an education for 14 years by the state (preschool/daycare, K-12) 14 months of payback is not too much to ask in my opinion.

Hell throw in a population based national needs scholarship program, performance and apptitude based (vocational as well as higher education) that can be applied for 12 months in - to start after service is complete. And a year for year education for additional service program for those who want to upgrade but didn't make the cut while serving.

 

[Skysix]

Service equals citizenship

As many countries do for immigrants who serve a term in their military. (Eligible to apply for)

 

[rmc_wannabe]

As many countries do for immigrants who serve a term in their military. (Eligible to apply for)

I guarantee if you opened recruiting to folks applying to Immigrate to Canada as a "fast track' lane- even if it were a 3 year CE served and your family can be PRs while you're here, I imagine our recruiting problems would disappear overnight. Our ability to screen, train, feed, and house these troop are another entirely different issue though...

As for Ukraine, I'm certain they know what skill sets are needed at the front, because, well... they have a front they're trying to maintain. I doubt their recruits are put through the same paces as our troops, as we recruit with the belief we're going to have this person go the distance to IE25. Ukrainians expect these troops will all go back to civilian life once the Russians are defeated. They want to have their doctors, engineers, service industry workers, teachers, welders, etc. all back on the job to rebuild their society.

 

[YZT580]

Service equals citizenship

Sparta

 

[The Bread Guy]

Ask Finland. Israel. Ukraine.

All of whom have active bad guys right next door who are pulling or have pulled significant shenangians before. I'm not saying we don't need more bang for the buck we're spending on the military (not to mention mo' bucks), just saying you figure out solutions based on your best prediction of what might happen and might be needed. SUre, never say never, but Canada's threat environment isn't quite like Finland, Israel or Ukraine.

Service equals citizenship

When I was a young, skinny MCpl, the idea appealed to me big time, too. With age, though, I've come to realize that in more than one situation, I'd rather have the sharpest, most-switched-on-informed-and-aware civilians I know have a say in who to elect than some of the worst blue falcon, shitpump, lazy and unethical folks I've served with.

I guarantee if you opened recruiting to folks applying to Immigrate to Canada as a "fast track' lane- even if it were a 3 year CE served and your family can be PRs while you're here, I imagine our recruiting problems would disappear overnight. Our ability to screen, train, feed, and house these troop are another entirely different issue though...

Yup on both counts.

... There are other societal benefits of gap-year service, be it military, civil defense emergency services or community support. If every citizen of every gender was required to do that 14 month (July after grad until August before college, university, work or family begins cohesion is developed that will reduce a lot of the tribalism (ethnic race or nationality based) present in most multicultural societies ... it gives individuals a chance to experience a little bit of real (non academic) life, develop a work ethic, discover their abilities/desires/hates, and provide a whole population entry-level skill pool to call up if needed and refresh/upgrade/specialise ...

I like how Latvia (and a few other countries) deals with the issue, giving folks a range of terms of service, including alternative service (s/he also serves who isn't necessarily cut out to be a soldier/sailor/aviator) ...

No need to put life on hold for a year. Four options to get through state defence service - Baltic News Network

The requirement for Latvian citizens to go through state defence service, which will take one year of life of a young man, does sound slightly scary, because Latvian residents are used to planning their life without entering military service. However, the Ministry of Defence has multiple options...

bnn-news.com

But no exemptions for the connected etc. EVERYBODY serves in some capacity appropriate to their physical and mental capabilities with an apptitude evaluation based sorting into what type of service done before choice of specific trades etc is allowed.

In a perfect world, FOR SURE!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ask Finland. Israel. Ukraine.

There are other societal benefits of gap-year service, be it military, civil defense emergency services or community support. If every citizen of every gender was required to do that 14 month (July after grad until August before college, university, work or family begins cohesion is developed that will reduce a lot of the tribalism (ethnic race or nationality based) present in most multicultural societies.

Nevermind just the Starship Trooper-like franchise (although it has it attractions...) it gives individuals a chance to experience a little bit of real (non academic) life, develop a work ethic, discover their abilities/desires/hates, and provide a whole population entry-level skill pool to call up if needed and refresh/upgrade/specialise.

But no exemptions for the connected etc. EVERYBODY serves in some capacity appropriate to their physical and mental capabilities with an apptitude evaluation based sorting into what type of service done before choice of specific trades etc is allowed.

Friends of mine who went through the Singapore mandatory service, enjoyed it and they jostle to get into certain regiments because the network you get out of it is very helpful in business life afterwards. Also helps they have a superbly equipped army for their size.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

My cousins underwent mandatory service in Italy. The bulk of the conscripts were filling roles that weren't pointy end jobs, but were very much Combat Support or Combat Service Support jobs that had civilian overlap. This was 2 fold in the sense that you were able to develop skills that were marketable in the civilian world, while also having your main bulk of pointy enders come from volunteers that wanted to be there and could be developed and molded in the long term.

I think having a year of service as a mechanic, HR specialist, medical orderly, communications specialist, etc. would pad the resume nicely, in addition to bulking up some of the shortfalls we have in certain trades.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think having a year of service as a mechanic, HR specialist, medical orderly, communications specialist, etc. would pad the resume nicely, in addition to bulking up some of the shortfalls we have in certain trades.

If it's mandatory, beware the don't-wanna-be-here sluggo fixing your truck/pay/comms/ailment, though That's why I'm a fan of offering alternative service, as they used to do in Italy (which ended mandatory mil svc around 2005). Son of a cousin of mine ended up doing (IIRC) 14 months with the Red Cross as opposed to 12 months or so in the military.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Since there's lotsa meaty detail to be hashed out here, and I couldn't find a specific other thread to connect this stuff to, here it is as a stand alone.

Please continue ....

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If it's mandatory, beware the don't-wanna-be-here sluggo fixing your truck/pay/comms/ailment, though That's why I'm a fan of offering alternative service, as they used to do in Italy (which ended mandatory mil svc around 2005). Son of a cousin of mine ended up doing (IIRC) 14 months with the Red Cross as opposed to 12 months or so in the military.

K-12 is mandatory, along with a literacy test and 40 hours of community service here in Ontario. Students jump through the hoops in order to move on to Post-Secondary or other things. tack on a year of compulsory service in between, another hoop to jump through that isn't that much of a burden. We move the goal posts on many other things, this could be one of them.

I fully agree that options like policing, EMS, Fire Fighting, ICRC, or other Civilian Service would factor in as well.

Like anything else that changes, you will have friction for a couple years, but once its the "done thing" it just becomes normal.

 

[Underway]

I guarantee if you opened recruiting to folks applying to Immigrate to Canada as a "fast track' lane- even if it were a 3 year CE served and your family can be PRs while you're here, I imagine our recruiting problems would disappear overnight. Our ability to screen, train, feed, and house these troop are another entirely different issue though...

I've posted on this before.

There are fixes for recruitment issues based on Immigration changes. But it requires a whole of government approach that I don't think the Treasury Board or Immigration are willing to change.

• accepting security clearances from Immigration Canada as valid for Basic Training and certain trades, if better security clearances are needed then initiate them at recruiting group and delay their trades training until its valid (Treasury Board Policy)
• accepting non-citizens through a "gain your citizenship program" similar to the USMC or French Foreign Legion (Immigration and Treasury Board Policy)
  • this in particular would require a change in the "points" system to allow people who don't meet the current cream of the crop standards
  • language training like in the Foreign Legion in an official language as part of their recruitment
  • this may go back to the security clearance from earlier. Immigration would accept CAF security clearances to make the new members citizens because we have a higher standard than they do.
• accepting commonwealth citizens as the UK does. This would immediately increase recruiting because Canada pays waaaaaay more than the UK does. All the folks from the Pacific Islands who join the Hussars in the UK would join the RCD's in Canada instead because they send the money back home to the family. And the bonus is they all speak English already.

That last point is interesting now as there are rumbles that the UK is looking at cutting back their overall troop numbers again. Time for Canada to swoop in and pick up the best of those who are let go for whatever reason.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Do it by lottery, so each year that you are eligible, you may get called up. Then it's a choice between the the Military and Civil Defense Force. Frankly I think that for Canada as a whole, having young people all share a common experience might help the country in the long term. Even if it dilutes the army professionalism a bit. Going by our current demographic, we have a eligible population of 2 million to draw from. Far more than we can use.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW you need a green card or a citizen of a protectorate (which get green cards automatically if they apply) to join any US service. Citizenship is expedited- but can’t be done as a total foreign individual

 

[Brad Sallows]

1. What lump sum will be due for people who have escaped conscription by virtue of its absence to date, or payable by people who are exempted?

2. Opportunity cost. Government will have to fund this thing, which means at the expense of something else. And universal conscription isn't really filling a need - it's just pouring money down a hole, hoping that some kind of useful work might be done.

3. Compensation for all the people displaced from paid work by conscripts doing "national service". Add that to the bill.

4. The burden imposed upon all the lifers baby-sitting temporary "national service" workers.

This sh!t just won't die.

 

[The Bread Guy]

1. What lump sum will be due for people who have escaped conscription by virtue of its absence to date, or payable by people who are exempted?

If someone's exempted, I would suspect it would be for health reasons (in which case having them pay because they're too sick/disabled to be accommodated via alternative service wouldn't be seen as fair), essential services reasons (in which case they're already serving doing SOMETHING), or religious/belief reasons (in which case "great - which alternative service box do you want to tick?").

2. Opportunity cost. Government will have to fund this thing, which means at the expense of something else. And universal conscription isn't really filling a need - it's just pouring money down a hole, hoping that some kind of useful work might be done.

I'll leave "where's the $ coming from?" to those with more experience juggling money, but you're right that this has to be considered.

3. Compensation for all the people displaced from paid work by conscripts doing "national service". Add that to the bill.

If COVID was any indication, health unions might be a titch upset about conscripts doing their work instead of them - although the private-sector employers might like it

4. The burden imposed upon all the lifers baby-sitting temporary "national service" workers.

... Even if it dilutes the army professionalism a bit. Going by our current demographic, we have a eligible population of 2 million to draw from. Far more than we can use.

Given the uproar about all the appearance changes coming in September, internal friction from "old school" would have to be dealt with, for sure.

 

[Navy_Pete]

FWIW you need a green card or a citizen of a protectorate (which get green cards automatically if they apply) to join any US service. Citizenship is expedited- but can’t be done as a total foreign individual

I know a lot of common wealth countries have options to join their forces as a non-citizen, and basically gives you the right to move there, with a work visa for joining the military. Think it was the UK where you were rank limited, but imagine you would get options to be fast tracked to some kind of landed immigrant/citizenship status.

Part of it is figuring out the equivalent pre-requisites, so it's a lot easier to do when your schooling systems have comparable standards as they were founded on the same basic system.

Not that the 'Common wealth' means anything as a whole, but generally CA/UK/NZ/AUS have pretty comparable baselines at least for recruiting purposes in terms of what a high school, college or university completion means.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I know a lot of common wealth countries have options to join their forces as a non-citizen, and basically gives you the right to move there, with a work visa for joining the military. Think it was the UK where you were rank limited, but imagine you would get options to be fast tracked to some kind of landed immigrant/citizenship status.

Part of it is figuring out the equivalent pre-requisites, so it's a lot easier to do when your schooling systems have comparable standards as they were founded on the same basic system.

Not that the 'Common wealth' means anything as a whole, but generally CA/UK/NZ/AUS have pretty comparable baselines at least for recruiting purposes in terms of what a high school, college or university completion means.

We could latch onto the UK Gurkha Program and have a company of Gurkha's with them earning citizenship for themselves and family. I be honoured to have them as neighbours. This way we fill out infantry numbers and don't have to create a new program from scratch.