Medal for Domestic Operation?

[Gunner]

Not so fast ANG!

The bill disappeared when parliament was dissolved last year, however, Ms McDonough intends to reintroduce the bill today:

At the moment, Ms. McDonough has not yet introduced it. She has given notice
of a bill by that title (it sits at no. 11 on the Order of Business;
http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/orderpaper/071_2005-03-21/orddb071-E.html)
and she may introduce it during the Daily Routine of Business at any time.
Its text will not be made public until such time as she introduces it and it
is ordered to be read a first time and printed.

Quote from Andrew Chaplain as mentioned on can.community.military newsgroup.

 

[John Nayduk]

Well holy jumping... 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I know if the decide to give a medal for Op Persistance  that is one I could do without.  :-[

 

[S McKee]

A medal for dom ops.....the wieners that DAG red every six months and those that spend their whole career in a cubicle in NDHQ must be dancing a jig, just think they'll get a medal to mount next to that lonely CD and they never had to leave the country.

 

[TCBF]

"Hold on, hold on.

Are they trying to tell us that the Toronto Snowstorm dig-out was not worthy of a medal? "

I always thought it was an act of sarcastic brilliance for a - at the time - largely tracked Army to send wheeled vehicles to help a city in a snowstorm.   The bureaucratic equivalent of laughing at another man's penis.   The real bust-a-gut was, they didn't get the joke: they actually thought we took their plight seriously.   I understand that a lot of new Canadians can be awed by our winters, but that's why we put good leaders in city hall, right?   To lead?

Tom

Added p.s to George Wallace: Now, George, you know the official FALLEX/REFORGER medal is a Heineken can!

 

[bossi]

I've always found it ironic that the first time I was shot at (also had a Molotov cocktail thrown in my direction) ... was on a Dom Op ... (plus, my participation totalled three months - thus allowing me to chuckle at others who got gongs for only 30 days of not getting shot at ...)

Dom Ops are an opportunity to "do our thing" under the watchful eye of our corporate sponsors - the Canadian taxpayers ...

IMHO belittling Dom Ops can lead to skewed priorities, where "away games" are worth more points than "home games".  Let's face it - a win is a win, whether it's on the road or at home - however, while we strive to avoid losing "on the road" ... we need to remember that "losing at home" is not an option (i.e. unlike hockey, the winner gets to keep the arena ...).

 

[Cpl.Banks]

Just outa curiosity do cadet years count for a service medal? I had heard rumors that it does, wich is pretty ridculous, are there any medals that cadets get awarded that can be worn on a CF (army) uniform?
UBIQUE!!!!

 

[pbi]

IMHO belittling Dom Ops can lead to skewed priorities, where "away games" are worth more points than "home games".  Let's face it - a win is a win, whether it's on the road or at home - however, while we strive to avoid losing "on the road" ... we need to remember that "losing at home" is not an option (i.e. unlike hockey, the winner gets to keep the arena ...).

I wasn't intending to belittle Dom Ops, but I don't agree with inflating them either. Under what conditions would we give a medal for a Dom Op? To me it is the thin end of the wedge forr a "fruit salad" chest on people who have never gone overseas, unless we are talking about some situation so cataclysmic that the nation is threatened. To me the "away games" are more important for us as a military, unless the day comes that we actually conduct combat operations in our own country. When we go out on a Dom Op we are not carrying out our primary function (even to the extent that some  of the lower threat PSOs represent this...)--we are picking up the slack because civil authorities are either inadequately prepared or are overwhelmed, and Canada has no organized Civil Defense Service.

It is great stuff, and I got a good feeling from all of the ones I've been involved in (well.....most of them....) but to me it just does not deserve a medal.

Cheers

 

[S McKee]

I'll have to agree with PBI on this one bossi, unless we're defending the motherland from the Godless Red Hordes you're pushing the envelope for a medal for fighting forest fires and flood relief. And what about the members who provided support for those fighting the flood waters/ice storm back at the ASG/ASU, do they get a medal too?  Remember all the support guys that went to Florida during the first mission to Afghanistan they got the same medal as the troops on the ground fighting the Taliban. The boys were a little pissed off.  Like it or not our bread and butter are the "away games"

 

[George Wallace]

Cpl Banks

Your question has been answered on other threads.....we will not go there here.   (Answer is NO)

I always felt proud not to have so many medals as those in other the Service of other Nations.   I felt that what we had were of more value and meant more.   Getting a Medal or a Ribbon for hygiene in the field, or Marksmanship, as found in the US was too much like the Boy Scouts Merit Badge system.   If Medals are what it takes to make you a Soldier, then something is wrong.   Besides, as has already been pointed out, the Government is very slow in producing them and even slower in passing them out.   Leave the Awards System as it is, my chest isn't big enough to carry useless crap.   It looks really ugly when a row of medals are worn on a shirt in the summer and they droop down at a 30 degree angle - yeah I know with digital cameras and Photo editing they can be straightened out....but.......

Next Question:   How far back are they going to go with this?   How will former members (in the thousands) get their medals for all of these Dominion Ops that they partook in?   Who even bothered to keep those records?

 

[Infanteer]

I agree with George - I remember reading a personal anecdote of an American with 4 rows of ribbons who met a British peer who had 3 medals for 3 wars; the American said he never felt so silly with his fruit salad.

I really feel the less medals the better - then it means the ones that we do get mean more.  Other then that it is just extra junk on a guys chest to puff up his professional bearing or something.  My NATO medal may have been a largely "constabulary" affair, but it was a foreign operation against a potentially hostile force, so it means something in terms of what I've been able to do in the service of my country.  Honestly, I am considering taking my CPSM off the next time I send them in, as to me it is a "thanks for coming out" type affair.

Mark raises a very good issue about some Domestic Ops being quite dangerous - I've been on one where we loaded up and literally conducted armed patrols (Grizzly) - luckily, the biggest danger was prowling cougars and rowdy Mounties, but the potential was there.  Does getting ammo and facing the potential of danger constitute deserving a medal?  Well, considering that there has been incidents with weapons escorts, perhaps my time escorting weapons as a reservist warrants recognition?  Poppycock.

Granted, sustained and continual operations against hostile forces in Canada should be properly recognized, just as the NorthWest Rebellion and Batoche are accorded Battle Honours today, but giving medals for guys who push snow around is ridiculous.  I got a nice certificate signed by Jean Chretian for stalking around Kananaskis for a week or so - I'm sure a medal on my chest would have elicited the same response (which was me binning the stupid thing)....

 

[bossi]

... unless we are talking about some situation so cataclysmic that the nation is threatened. To me the "away games" are more important for us as a military, unless the day comes that we actually conduct combat operations in our own country. When we go out on a Dom Op we are not carrying out our primary function (even to the extent that some  of the lower threat PSOs represent this...)--we are picking up the slack because civil authorities are either inadequately prepared or are overwhelmed, and Canada has no organized Civil Defense Service.

Our respective opinions aren't that far apart.
I'm prejudiced because I'm considering those occasions where the Army had to step in because the police were overwhelmed through no real fault of their own (i.e. for the sake of argument, maybe civvie police really shouldn't have to contend with large numbers of bad guys who are using assault/military rifles/weapons ...).
Thus, I'm looking at it from the perspective of defending Canada (okay - maybe just a little corner of it) from anarchy (whether from without, or within ...)

Sure - for political reasons, we don't want to start making a habit of conducting "internal security" ops ... but, on those occasions when our Army has to carry live ammunition ... hey - wait a minute - there's one reasonable criteria, perhaps ... (?)

And, I'd also likely to very politely point out that sometimes "the rear party" serves a real purpose, too
(i.e. if the only criteria for "recognition" was overseas service ... then why bother leaving anybody at home in Canada - the CF should then exist only outside of our borders ... okay - I'm getting a little silly, but still ... I don't think it's fair to tar everybody with such a broad brush - i.e. on any given day, some troops are overseas and some are in Canada - it's not always a matter of personal choice as to where or when we serve ...)

Anyway - I don't want us to be polarised on this - I'd rather we move closer to the middle, regardless of which side of the middle we end up on.

 

[Sandbag]

IMHO this would be a mistake, if for no other reason than what I see here in the many discussions.  The awarding of such a medal would polarize everyone in the forces, you would either be for it or against and likely with no middle ground.  Recognition for outstanding service/bravery, etc is usually given, and if it isn't it is our collective responsiblity to ensure such service is recognized.  As such for the rest of us average folks, our reward is doing our job well.  Like most here on this forum, I too have done the full gambit: ops, rear party, dom ops and exchange and many times the people you work with day in and day out give you the best reward at the end of your efforts if they are appreciated.  It can be anything from a thanks to a "babble", but if it comes from those you served with, regardless of the mission, it will likely mean the most.  No, I believe that issuing such a medal would cause more heartache than good, as such IMHO it shouldn't be approved. 

 

[gifrank]

This is just another waste of medal. Like someone else said in this forum. Its someone who cant leave Canada and wants a medal beside his CD.  Working an Ice Storm, or helping a flood raged city, etc is doing YOUR JOB.  Wake up pretty soon we will be like the Americans and get a medal for passing basic training.

 

[Gunner]

This is just another waste of medal. Like someone else said in this forum. Its someone who cant leave Canada and wants a medal beside his CD.

Well, lets remember that this is not an NDHQ driven initiative and it is spearheaded by a politician (NDP). 

Working an Ice Storm, or helping a flood raged city, etc is doing YOUR JOB.

So is getting paid (12 years gets you a CD), serving with the UN/NATO, or combat operations with the US (Op APOLLO).  By your reasoning, medals shouldn't be given for any reason as you are getting paid to do be a soldier anyway.

 

[Poppa]

I don't know about this...as Boss made reference to some of the craziest times I've had was dealing with all 3 confrontations with Natives. Do I want medals? Haven't thought about it.
Could it be a moral issue some sort of tangable "attaboy". I was talking to guy I worked with overseas and he said for the most part that's what their medals were.

If these things get issued I guess I'll wear it if not I won't lose sleep over it.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

As others have pointed out, implementing such a medal will cause huge angst.  Most Army areas run multiple dom ops every year - why are only a few (of the more "warm and fuzzy" ones) listed in the Bill's annex?  What about the Air Force?  Their aircraft conduct evac operations of remote villages, SAR, fishery patrols, etc..  What about the Navy's tracking of drug smugglers and assistance to Fisheries Canada?  Where does it end?

I probably worked harder on PEREGRINE than on any overseas operation, but it was for a very limited time and the level of "risk" just was not the same.  Did it deserve a medal?  Probably not.

My $0.02...

TR

 

[Gunner]

I probably worked harder on PEREGRINE than on any overseas operation, but it was for a very limited time and the level of "risk" just was not the same.  Did it deserve a medal?  Probably not.

That's because you were just a "staff" guy. 

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Thanks for reminding me - I was trying to forget!   

Staff officers have feelings too - they just have to reflect the Commander's intent!  ;D

 

[Rfn]

Good point:

I don't know about this...as Boss made reference to some of the craziest times I've had was dealing with all 3 confrontations with Natives.

According to the bill's annex at the bottom, the list doesn't seem complete...

Oka, Gustavson Lake or any other aid to civil power ops aren't included. Nor does OP Grizzly rate a medal.

Anyone surprised?