Medal for Domestic Operation?

[Infanteer]

All the operations that didn't involve weapons or the need for ROE's.  Maybe instead, they should just give the deserving soldiers Memberships to the Public Service Union.

 

[TCBF]

"All the operations that didn't involve weapons or the need for ROE's.   Maybe instead, they should just give the deserving soldiers Memberships to the Public Service Union."

Trolling, are we?   ;D

Tom

 

[Infanteer]

Calling a spade a spade Tom (although that may be construed as trolling by some  ).  Essentially, I'm reading the proposal as an award for soldiers going out to rake the lawn and mind the yard - essentially what Canadian public servants do....

 

[John Nayduk]

IT's back.   Got introduced today.

Introduction of Private Members' Bills Dépôt de projets de loi émanant des députés
 
No. 1   No 1  
October 5, 2004 â ” Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (security)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â ” M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'immigration et la protection des réfugiés (dépôt de garantie) ».  
No. 2   No 2  
October 5, 2004 â ” Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Criminal Code (blood alcohol content)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â ” M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant le Code criminel (taux d'alcoolémie) ».  
No. 3   No 3  
October 5, 2004 â ” Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act (parole hearings)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â ” M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant la Loi sur le système correctionnel et la mise en liberté sous condition (audiences de libération conditionnelle) ».  
No. 4   No 4  
October 5, 2004 â ” Mr. Martin (Winnipeg Centre) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act (appointment of permanent members)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â ” M. Martin (Winnipeg-Centre) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant la Loi sur le Tribunal canadien du commerce extérieur (nomination des titulaires) ».  
No. 5   No 5  
October 5, 2004 â ” Mr. Casey (Cumberlandâ ”Colchesterâ ”Musquodoboit Valley) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Public Service Employment Act and the Public Service Employment Act enacted by section 12 of chapter 22 of the Statutes of Canada, 2003 (area of selection)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â ” M. Casey (Cumberlandâ ”Colchesterâ ”Musquodoboit Valley) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'emploi dans la fonction publique et la Loi sur l'emploi dans la fonction publique édictée par l'article 12 du chapitre 22 des Lois du Canada (2003) (zone de sélection) ».  
No. 6   No 6  
October 5, 2004 â ” Mr. Martin (Winnipeg Centre) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Competition Act (investigations by Commissioner and class proceedings) and to make a related amendment to another Actâ ?.   5 octobre 2004 â ” M. Martin (Winnipeg-Centre) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant la Loi sur la concurrence (enquêtes du commissaire et recours collectifs) et une autre loi en conséquence ».  
No. 7   No 7  
October 14, 2004 â ” Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Criminal Code (abduction) and another Act in consequenceâ ?.   14 octobre 2004 â ” M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi modifiant le Code criminel (enlèvement) et une autre loi en conséquence ».  
No. 8   No 8  
October 19, 2004 â ” Ms. McDonough (Halifax) â ” Bill entitled â Å“An Act respecting the establishment and award of a Special Service Medal for Domestic Operations (SSM-DO)â ?.   19 octobre 2004 â ” Mme McDonough (Halifax) â ” Projet de loi intitulé « Loi prévoyant la création et l'octroi de la médaille du service spécial pour opérations nationales (MSS-ON) ».  

 

[Infanteer]

It's good to see that Chuck Cadman (the independent) is sticking to his "tough on crime" promises - hmm...a politician who sticks to his guns and represents the interests of his riding (Surrey has a tough time with crime).

As for McDonough's bill, hopefully it gets shot down for the stupid political posturing that it is (look, the NDP got you new medals, vote for us!)....

 

[Gunner]

As for McDonough's bill, hopefully it gets shot down for the stupid political posturing that it is (look, the NDP got you new medals, vote for us!)....

Hmm, when did stupid political posturing every accomplish anything in parliament...oops, bad Liberal election promise in 93, so long Maritime Helicopters....If I was a betting man, make sure you keep your medals handy to turn into clothing stores for medal mounting.

 

[Infanteer]

Key caveat - the Liberals were in charge in '93. 

They can keep their medal - I don't think I qualify for it, since my only DomOp involved loaded rifles and ROEs....

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Yup.  While private members' bills usually flop, what politician is going to vote against "honouring our troops" with a new medal...?  Let's hope that someone has the common sense to change the annex to include the less PC operations and firm up the requirements - otherwise look out... :

 

[KevinB]

Make me puke.


Fine want to honour the tasks - fine Humanitarian Service Bar on the SSM for the Fires/Floods and IceStorm

Somehow I don't think that some of our other DomOps (with the exception of G8 where the only people to kill anything where the "Conservation" Officers) we want to flash off to people.

Somehow I think medals for doing drug interdiction and Native Insurection just won't fly...  And honestly those mission where more worthy than the FFI stuff.


Just my thoughts

Kevin

 

[bossi]

Fine want to honour the tasks - fine Humanitarian Service Bar on the SSM for the Fires/Floods and IceStorm

Somehow I don't think that some of our other DomOps (with the exception of G8 where the only people to kill anything where the "Conservation" Officers) we want to flash off to people.

Somehow I think medals for doing drug interdiction and Native Insurection just won't fly...   And honestly those mission where more worthy than the FFI stuff.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you - it'll be politically incorrect to issue medals for any dom op that involved live ammo (again - in my personal opinion, it seems so incongruous - not getting a medal for actually being shot at in Canada, but handing out medals for foreign junkets ...)

I second the motion to simply create a "Humanitarian" bar for the SSM - using the KISS principle, perhaps criteria could be "Assistance during a declared emergency" (or is that too common sense?)

Discussing this with some others, it was pointed out there will STILL be some people who won't even qualify for this Dom Op bar (i.e. since they've never even stepped up to the plate ... ever ...).

So, ya know what?  If we take a step back, and "for the sake of argument" accept that a Dom Op bar on the SSM is simply a logical continuation of "recognizing 'special' service" ... then maybe it's not the end of the world (and, like I said - there are lurkers out there who've never even been on a Dom Op ...)

 

[Poppa]

Make me puke.


Fine want to honour the tasks - fine Humanitarian Service Bar on the SSM for the Fires/Floods and IceStorm

Somehow I don't think that some of our other DomOps (with the exception of G8 where the only people to kill anything where the "Conservation" Officers) we want to flash off to people.


Kevin

So Kevin does that mean you don't want some flashy gong to commemerate doing the TEAL conf in Ottawa...you know hanging out at the hotel downtown...serious libations every night and inspections each morning.?

Cheers

 

[pbi]

So how many of these "bars" would you get? One for each DomOp? Or only for certain DomOps? What role in the Op would entitle you to a bar? Take me, for example: (and I'm really just a pogue...): 76 Olympics, Red River Flood, Southern Ontario Snowstorm, Y2K, Windsor Trade Conference, NATO Defence Ministers, Counter Narcotics, Albanian Refugees, Gustafson Lake, G8, BC Fires. Would I get a bar for each one?

Nope, sorry: I'm not in favour and I would feel silly standing next to a civilian firefighter (especially a volunteer firefighter...) or LEA officer who was on the same DomOp and took it in stride as part of their duties with no medal. We have to keep this medal urge under control or we will be blossoming out like Christmas trees.

Cheers

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Or maybee they should issue domestic ops medals to only half of those that were actually there, much like the 125 and jubilee.I think every "gimmee" medal they produce, only makes soldiers look bad.If a general working with american forces, cant truthfully explain why he doesnt have a fruit salad on his chest, maybee he should be thinking more about important things.

  IMHO a soldier issued with a medal that reflects an actual operation/commendation, is much prouder than someone who got a 125 because his uncle was a member of parliament.

  Just my 2 cents.

 

[bick]

As silly as this whole thing is, remember, the CPSM started as a private members bill.

Good thing we don't have to pay to have our medals court mounted.

 

[bossi]

So how many of these "bars" would you get? One for each DomOp? Or only for certain DomOps? What role in the Op would entitle you to a bar? Take me, for example: (and I'm really just a pogue...): 76 Olympics, Red River Flood, Southern Ontario Snowstorm, Y2K, Windsor Trade Conference, NATO Defence Ministers, Counter Narcotics, Albanian Refugees, Gustafson Lake, G8, BC Fires. Would I get a bar for each one?

Ooops - I should have elaborated my stand in this debate.
No, I'd be more in favour of simply one "Humanitarian" or Dom Op bar on the SSM (i.e. "Canada")
(i.e. using the same logic as the CPSM ...)
The "Canada" bar would also avoid "political correct" embarassment for Dom Ops such as Akwesasne, Oka, Gustafson Lake, etc.
(i.e. carrying live ammo within Canada, being shot at by other Canadians ...)

Nope, sorry: I'm not in favour and I would feel silly standing next to a civilian firefighter (especially a volunteer firefighter...) or LEA officer who was on the same DomOp and took it in stride as part of their duties with no medal. We have to keep this medal urge under control or we will be blossoming out like Christmas trees.

No - as I stated in my earlier post, this criteria would only apply to declared emergencies - i.e. using your example, when civilian firefighters (or police) were overwhelmed ... ergo, couldn't do the job and therefore required extraordinary reinforcement from troops whose primary duty is NOT the same ...

Sorry - I respect your opinion, and as grownups we can agree to disagree, however ... if Parliament enacts this bill, we'd better be prepared to obey lawful orders and come up with some sensible criteria ... and thus I'm trying to come up with a compromise solution that makes sense
(e.g. I agree that it would spiral out of control if we awarded a bar for every Dom Op.  I also feel strongly that it should NOT be an additional medal, but instead it should ONLY be an additional bar to the existing SSM - "Special Service" - as I've said, there are people who've never even stepped up to the plate and participated in a Dom Op ... so, regardless of whether it's because they're shirkers or simply luck of the draw, it becomes "special" when troops have participated in significant Dom Ops ... hmmmm ... wait a minute - as I was typing this, it dawned on me ... I'd be much happier if shirkers had to wear a special badge of shame on their uniform - something like "I never volunteered to go anywhere, but still got paid the same as and promoted ahead of the troops who did" ... yup - THAT would make me much happeir ... oh, well ... we all know that'll never happen ...)

 

[Infanteer]

Just a question, is one obligated to mount and wear the medals one is awarded?  My guess is if this goes through, guys who don't give a shit could just bin the thing (along with the Jean Chretien signed certificate)....

 

[John Nayduk]

I agree with BOSSI.  If we must have something, I think a bar to the current Special Service Medal that says "Domestic Operations" would do.

 

[bossi]

Just a question, is one obligated to mount and wear the medals one is awarded?   My guess is if this goes through, guys who don't give a crap could just bin the thing (along with the Jean Chretien signed certificate)....

A thought-provoking question ...
Would you also shred your commissioning scroll, if you didn't happen to like the MND who signed it?
If you felt it to be excessive to wear medals on pde, would you just show up without them?
Or, using the same logic but reversing the "polarity", if you felt a mistake was made and you'd been overlooked for a medal, would you wear a medal you had NOT been awarded?

 

[Infanteer]

Would you also shred your commissioning scroll, if you didn't happen to like the MND who signed it?

This is a bit of a personal affair - you don't have to wear your commission on your uniform, so you could use it for toilet paper for all I care (although I'm sure it would be uncomfortable).

If you felt it to be excessive to wear medals on pde, would you just show up without them?
Or, using the same logic but reversing the "polarity", if you felt a mistake was made and you'd been overlooked for a medal, would you wear a medal you had NOT been awarded?

This is what I'm getting at.   Obviously, wearing something you were not awarded is not good - it is not up to individuals to decide what decorations they are entitled to wear - I could see allowing this to be an exercise in absurdity (and you'd see folks walking around with VC's)

However, what I'm looking for is the legality of the issue - legally, is one required to wear their medals on parade - is this a QR&O?   Or is showing up in your DEU's because the trinkets are sitting in a shoebox good enough?

 

[KevinB]

So Kevin does that mean you don't want some flashy gong to commemerate doing the TEAL conf in Ottawa...you know hanging out at the hotel downtown...serious libations every night and inspections each morning.?

Cheers

;D  

I had the shakes for weeks - ah memories...


I agree with PBI in spirit.

If we are beaking off about medals - the CPSM is one to GO.  WTF a medal for getting a medal -- every try to explain that one to kids at a Nov11th school ceremony?  Personally I think they should pull back all the NON-Theatre SWASM's and issue the GSM or that stuff like they do now...  It drives me nuts to think someone got the Afghan Bar and cbt leaf on undress ribbons for sitting in an airconditioned office in XXXXX and Florida.

Of course someone is going to come and remove my Cyprus medal since we where there long after the fighting - and so on and so on...


I'd have much rather gotten paid at the floods and fires in accordance with the risks, ( - real great when your pl is cut in half by fire in Kelowna and you ride around on top of fire trucks for 23hrs...  All for field pay  ???) than some shiny.  I am all for helping our fellow Canadians in need and dont think we need a shiny trinket to show off as payment for our service.  


Infanteer - I know a bunch who binned the CPSM...