Merged 64 Pattern Rucksack thread

[George Wallace]

I'm still wondering where you are getting your A7A Straps ?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm still wondering where you are getting your A7A Straps ?

A roll of web, a box of buckles and a sewing machine? As with many things in the army, the finished item may be in short supply, but the components are plentiful and readily available through the system. Just gotta take time to build them.

 

[MikeL]

I got a bunch of A7A straps from a surplus store in Edmonton.


Dropzone, AFAIK ALICE did not come into service in the US Army till 1974, during the Vietnam War most units used the Light Weight Rucksack ( http://mooremilitaria.com/Ruck%20Front.JPG ), some troops picked up ARVN Rucks though. Other units like the Ranger Companies got Tropical Rucksacks when they came out( http://mooremilitaria.com/Tropical%201.JPG ) which kinda look like a medium ALICE pack, but aren't the same an used a X frame.

 

[DropZone]

MikeL

Your absolutely right. The ALICE frame was not general issue until 1974. But the ALICE program was started in 1967, with the switch from canvas to nylon. The "64" was used in Viet Nam up to '73 due to a pack frame shortage, hence the use of the ARVN "tropical frame" that you described was also used

I reference pages 159 through 173 of Shelby Stanton's excellent book U.S. Army Uniforms of the Vietnam War. Published by Stackpole Books 1989,1992. There are great photos and technical drawings of these packs in Stantons book.

Kind Regards
Brian Kroon

 

[Lerch]

Any idea when said site will be back up?

I need a new pack for camping/hiking, and 218$ sounds pretty good to me (they don't pay me THAT much).

Buzz kitguru@rogers.com he's the bloke who hooked me up. He'll take paypal which is nice.

 

[thatoldfool]

I just found a scan of the old, US Army, ALICE pack, manual, and post it here for your reference:

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_alice/alicemanual.htm

Hope someone finds it useful, or at least interesting.

Cheers,

-Cincinnatus

 

[thatoldfool]

Good evening all,

One more request for all of you with the 64 pack--as the pictures posted last year no longer show properly, could someone post (again) their 64 setup? I'm curious specifically as to one's choice in modular pouches, and in the distant future, am wondering whether to get the "default" drop zone set of 2 bren pouches, and the bertha butt pack, or some other combo. Once again, yes, I am new to the kit demands of the military, and yes, I will finish my basic courses before even dreaming of getting some sort of rig together. Nonetheless, I am a curious sort, and would like to hear what others have done with their rucks.

Long live the merged 64 pattern thread! ; :warstory:

-Cincinnatus

 

[spartan308]

I am no longer doing the kit stuff. I was testing the water business wise and did not like it. I will try and find a new contact for you from the guys who makes the stuff.  I am sure riggermade can help you as well.

kitguru@rogers.com

 

[thatoldfool]

Just a heads up to all:

CPGear is offering what seem to be *original* 64-pack (jump-ruck) frames for the very reasonable price of $45. No army surplus I've been to has had a better price, and more often than not, the listed price is higher. Here's the link:

http://www.cpgear.com/default.asp?mn=1.19.56&f=pd&pid=485

Hope this is useful...

 

[PhilB]

I posted this in another thread but I will re-post it in this thread (mods if this isn't correct move and/or delete as you see fit).

the problem I have with any Alice/64 based system is the suspension. A bag is a bag as long as it is well made but the suspension is what will kill you. Most guys that I know purchase an upgraded suspension be it a combo of eagle or TT straps, or Dropzone kit and some sort of waist belt. While this system is better than using the issue straps and kidney pad from the 82 ruck I think that it is still lacking.

External frame rucks as the way to go for the military I think because it allows you to easily carry odd shaped items (Jerry's, ammo, mortar or 84 bombs etc) however no matter what suspension you add it is not comparable to the suspension on an internal frame ruck. This is because of the waist belt. As you are attaching a waist belt to a rigid ruck frame it is little more than a pad. The belts do not have the ability to transfer significant weight from your shoulders to your hips, yes they improve the comfort of the ruck but not the ergonomics.

Lets consider the average price for a set up, minus the bag, valice, and A7a straps.

From dropzone you are looking at 69.99 for Cadpat shoulder straps and 89.99 for a cadpat waist belt for a total off $159.98. Now add on approx $50 dollars for an Alice or 64 frame and your total is now at $209.98. This is not including a back pad. Add on a back pad from CP Gear for $20 and your grand total without a bag or A7A straps is $229.98.

The system that I went with is made by an American company called www.mysteryranch.com
It is a frame based on the Alice frame but made out of highimpact carbon fiber called the NICE frame. The benefits of having a carbon fiber frame is that the frame flexes slightly. When wearing it if you flex your shoulders on the march there is give, the frame flexes with you and makes it much more comfortable. It is jumpable (according to the company) and extremely strong. I haven't done any specific strength tests but in my opinion it is a more solid system. The cross bars on the frame are in the same posn as a 64/Alice pack and are sheathed in nylon for additionally durability. The combination of the cross bars and all of the webbing attachment points on then frame made it easier to lash things to the frame than a 64/Alice.

Equally important to the strength, flex, and lashability is the comfort. It has an integrated suspension system, that in essence allows you the utility of an external frame ruck with the comfort of an internal frame suspension. The waist belt and lumbar pad actually transfer weight from your shoulders to your hips. The yoke is backed with a rigid piece of plastic which prevents the straps from slipping off your shoulders, or conversely, from digging into your neck. Another benefit is that the yoke is completely adjustable up or down, a feature that you cannot have on a 64/Alice system. Cost wise it may be prohibitive to some as it is $250 American, but when compared side by side with setting up a decent aftermarket 64 setup it is definitely in the price range. For the superior properties of this system I am willing to pay the 30 or 40 dollars more (depending on exchange rate). This company is a pleasure to deal with, the frames are made to order and I received mine within a week. Although it may not be apparent in the pictures on their website it fits the 64 with no issues. Here are some pictures of my ruck

As you can see it is a beefy suspension system that is integrated into the frame. You can also see that it is not just a waist belt but a lumbar pad and wrap around hip belt. You can also see the curve of the shoulder straps.

Here is a side view.

I hope this helps guys, if you want more pictures let me know and I will try and take them as quick as I can. I used this system on my PLQ and also when I deployed with no issues. All in all despite the slight price increase over a traditional system I would highly recommend it.

 

[spr_sldr]

I was just wondering what everyone thought was a better ruck?
Ive used both and personally like the 64 Jump ruck better but some people say the issue one is fine.
Personally I find it throws my back out if anything is added onto it. ( I recently had a 522 strapped to it for a recce exercise in meaford.)
Thoughts?
And is there a better ruck out there?
With our military becoming more mechanized every day could Patrol packs be the ruck of the future?

 

[medaid]

Mallard,

    Did you actually read this thread man? This is all about the 64 Pattern. If you did a search you'll find that comparison between the two rucks have been donw numerous times. Rucks, like boots, are a matter of personal opinion, and sure there are better rucks out there. My question to you is, do you think you'll be allowed to wear it? The 64 is a tried tested, and true external ruck that many RSMs have approved for wear, and that many soldiers believe in it's durability and niceness. However, it definitely isn't the be all and end all ruck. It is a nice one, better then the current issued one. I switched over to a 64 in my second year and I have never looked back. My personal opinion.

 

[thatoldfool]

To add another review to this thread, and to ask for some direction:

I'm an infantry reservist currently attached with 2R22R for F0-1019. While still at my home unit, I decided to order the CP-Gear 64-Pack system, once I saw that the old frames were once again available. Having used it for about a year, here are my conclusions:

PADDING
Pros: The padding is excellent on this pack, and the back-pad is velcro attached, conceivably so that it can be taken and washed without tearing the whole ruck apart. No complaints here.
Cons: None, really--although some like the shoulder padding to be wider, I didn't find this to be too much of a problem.

STRAPS
Pros: Seem well made, and the standard things are all there--quick release for the pack, along with nice clipping, not sliding, locks. The A7 straps allow for easy in and out access of your valise and air matress, key especially on winter ex's.
Cons: I like a tight tight ruck, and I find that a) I can't tighten shoulder straps tight enough b) the back pouch, if overly full, doesn't close very gracefully and c) I find the A7 straps awkward. Having just gotten back from another march today, and *despite* tightening the straps as much as I could, upon return to batallion my valise and sleeping kit were falling out.

SIZE
Pros: As advertized, this ruck is bigger than the original one on which it was based. Furthermore, despite some people thinking to the contrary, it actually does fit just as much as the standard issue ruck.
Cons: The pack doesn't gracefull attach to the standard, jump-ruck, frame. Because of it's size, and no matter how high I try to mount it  on the frame (only so high is possible), if the bag is fully packed, it sags well below the bottom, to the point where I can feel it. This is my biggest problem with this `bigger` system. Having field tested it on ex, on marches in the bush, and on marches civi-side, this is it's most awkward feature. Some sort of support system needs to be implemented to lift up the base, wonder-bra-styles, because currently, my fully packed ruck looks like a beer-belly that's falling out of its owner's pants.

CONCLUSIONS
This is a decent ruck, but I feel that there could be more fine tuning to it. If the original pattern could be followed faithfully, I would gladly re-buy this pack from CP-Gear. However, as it stands, I'm now looking for a `classic` model with wich to replace the one that I have now. That being said:

1-Anyone interested in buying my Cadpat CP-Gear 64 pack, minus the frame, for $160, plus shipping?
2-Anyone interested in selling me their, or telling me where to find an, original, canadian, 64 pack?

Cheers,

-Cin

 

[MikeL]

I had no problems with the bag sagging low, I just wrapped A7A straps around the entire ruck an that held it tight. Also, I wouldn't worry to much about buying a new ruck for tour since its lookin like all Infantry Battalions deploying get the new ruck(least my BN did). 

 

[thatoldfool]

I thought about rigging it like that, but didn't like how that forced me to loosen the straps to get into the ruck. If no one is interested in buying my old one, I might try a few more complicated mods, though...

As to bringing it on tour--not interested in it for that, really--I just want to have a comfortable ruck here on base for ourmarches and ex's, as well as for my own hiking, civi side. Am thinking about just rigging the issued ruck to the fram and putting the valise on top, like I see some guys doing, but we'll see..

Cheers,

-Cin

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

A couple of A7A straps can really do wonders to your 64

 

[Kempa_Westie]

For the first time since i bought my 64 pattern(thank you riggermade!), i actually used it in a very physical and winter-based exercise. My bag has five pockets on the main bag, which i stuffed with my rations for the weekend(if it was a longer ex i could have easily store more inside the main bag or valise). To reply to your post, Cincinnatus, it's not hard getting into your main bag when your A7 straps are wrapped around the whole ruck, you simply have to just loosen the straps a little and all it takes is a little weaselling of the hand to get into the ruck to get what you want. I found that i could get things out of my ruck much faster than anyone else in the section.

On a whole other note, on a winter ex, and depending on how MUCH of a winter ex it is(IE, cold-wise), people may be stripping off and putting on layers of clothing all the time. I found that i didn't really need to, but if i did, it was easy enough to have my goretex jacket squeezed in under the valice or just bungeed on top of my ruck for easy grabbing. I liked that during our long marches.
rushing through the tent-up/tent-down routine was also very nice with the 64. Loosen up the A7's nice and fast, and whip that valise into the tent, while the older rucks take a little bit more ******* with. Not to mention i didn't have those annoying plastic pieces that like to break and freeze in cold conditions.

All in all, i had my first real experience with my beloved 64. I would have liked a molle system on the main bag instead of pockets, and i may invest in a bag like that in the future. Other then that, the shoulder straps are a little uncomfortable, but they are better than the old straps, that's for sure. As for the kidney pads and back pad, the ones riggermade supplied to me are perfect. They aren't even close to as think as the once CP gear supplies, and they do me just fine. Oh, and as for the valise slipping out, as some people are complaining about, i have a valise with three pockets sewn onto it(thanks again, riggermade!) and it helps A LOT with that slippage. So, some of you may want to look into that

 

[medaid]

I would have liked a molle system on the main bag instead of pockets...

Did you take a look at the packs we had made for the Cambrian team? Several pers from your Regt have them.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have one of the rucks, and love it. I need a picture and price for that valise.

 

[Kempa_Westie]

MedTech- I DID see them. They looked pretty sexy to me. How much do they run for? Or are they special order bags? I asked one of our guys and i think he said they were just made especially for the Cambrian.
Recceguy- If my camera wasn't crushed on course i would take a picture for you, lol. But just message riggermade and he should be able to fill you in And i believe the valice was $30, but don't quote me on that!