"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[jollyjacktar]

And that is why I favour more of a hybrid model for policing than our current one - we want MPs to do too much.  They lack the time and numbers to develop all the skillsets we need for the big P policing functions, since we still need them to maintain the big M functions (PW handling is to my mind the big one).

The military career management system, with folks moving every 3-4 years, also prevents the development of in-depth knowledge and experience in key areas.  A course does not make an investigator; experience conducting investigations does.

What is the perfect model and mix?  I don't know.  Getting co-lcoated MP/RCMP dets to do on-base functions might be a start.  Of course, it would cost more to add some RCMP to our bases, and there's little appetite to spend more right now.

And therein lies the rub.  Not every base is as active as others.  Base policing is like small town work, you may not get a chance to investigate much.  And of course the really big ticket cases go to CFNIS.  In my day, they said that 4 years in Germany was worth 10 in Canada for experience.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There would be no reason for the switch beyond the CF trying to get rid of the "police officer" from the MP. If thats what you guys want- professional field MP's than go hard. I have no opinion on that because I dont know enough about their field duties., But you wont get a better police officer in your communities. The holes in MP experience on the street, such as major crime, could be plugged by increasing their exposure to major case management and investigations beyond checking doors and attending alarms. (more exposure- dont read into that comment)

There's a good idea in there: set up an RCMP 'OMLT' for our MPs to make sure that they get exposure to the cases they wouldn't normally through the course of their daily work.

I assume there are similar issues with other military professions that cross the line into civvy street, like lawyers and doctors.

 

[noneck]

D&B there is already an exchange or secondment in place. There is at least one qualified RCMP Major Case Management (MCM) Team Commander with NIS in Ottawa and I know that the have attached other RCMP investigators for long term projects in the past.

The USMC has recently started up LEO Bn's for international operations utilizing the civilian skill sets of marine reservists. This could definitely be done here in Canada with the number of reservists that are full time LEO's. they could augment our Reg F MP units with specific skill sets and experience.

Noneck

 

[brihard]

There's a good idea in there: set up an RCMP 'OMLT' for our MPs to make sure that they get exposure to the cases they wouldn't normally through the course of their daily work.

I assume there are similar issues with other military professions that cross the line into civvy street, like lawyers and doctors.

Paramedics/Med Techs come to mind.

But yeah, reciprocal exchanges between MPs and RCMP on a broader scale could actually be a rather neat idea.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Paramedics/Med Techs come to mind.

But yeah, reciprocal exchanges between MPs and RCMP on a broader scale could actually be a rather neat idea.

Yes, I'd love to see an RCMP Staff Sergeant digging a trench at 0300hrs in a rainstorm  ;D

Wait a minute... our MPs still do that kind of stuff, right?

 

[marshall sl]

Cant he get a Inspector to dig it? Not  very good Sgt

 

[RJS2511885]

As a retired MP Branch member I have read comments about the RCMP. In fact the RCMP used to police many Cdn Forces bases about 50 years ago. Usually the RCMP Det on a base would consist  of 1-2 members...in fairness hardly enough to provide proper police support to the military community.

 

[Container]

They would most certainly be under-manned. Its pretty much our MO.

 

[Mountie]

Could the RCMP not act in a similar manner to the Ministry of Defence (MOD) Police in the UK?  Seems they do much of the basic policing, although not all of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_Police

 

[Dissident]

Could they? Sure. Should they? This thread has not come to a concensus.

I thought this photo was interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Female_with_SA80A2.jpg

 

[AmmoTech90]

Could the RCMP not act in a similar manner to the Ministry of Defence (MOD) Police in the UK?  Seems they do much of the basic policing, although not all of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_Police

The Brits can have up to four guard services on a base.  MOD Plod which is a police force (and who the PC in the picture belongs to), Military Provost Guard Service which is a reserve organization made up of ex-Reg or TA soldiers and is armed, Military Guard Service which is the equivalent of CCoC, and Royal Military Police.
Not sure if having four guard organizations help, but when three of them are armed at least you can be sure of having an armed presence at entry points.

 

[QV]

Could the RCMP not act in a similar manner to the Ministry of Defence (MOD) Police in the UK?  Seems they do much of the basic policing, although not all of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_Police

Yes they could.  The RCMP could roll about half of the MP branch over and the remainder could be left to the CF for field ops such as detainee handling.  By putting policing with an entity entirely outside of the control of the CF many of the problems encountered now would disappear.  Base policing would be rolled in to regular RCMP postings and all the experience in domestic policing and the assets that the RCMP has access to would be a huge improvement.  I don't think this is really debatable, I mean a huge organization with its own budget, resources and independent chain of command, focused on policing...boat loads of experience...yes, I think it would be far better than the status quo. 

Not so sure how much the CF would like having an arms length outsider policing them.  With absolutely no control or influence, would the CF be ok with this?  Based on my experiences, I would say "no".  But this, I think, is really where the debate is. 

 

[George Wallace]

Yes they could.  The RCMP could roll about half of the MP branch over and the remainder could be left to the CF for field ops such as detainee handling.  By putting policing with an entity entirely outside of the control of the CF many of the problems encountered now would disappear.  Base policing would be rolled in to regular RCMP postings and all the experience in domestic policing and the assets that the RCMP has access to would be a huge improvement.  I don't think this is really debatable, I mean a huge organization with its own budget, resources and independent chain of command, focused on policing...boat loads of experience...yes, I think it would be far better than the status quo. 

Not so sure how much the CF would like having an arms length outsider policing them.  With absolutely no control or influence, would the CF be ok with this?  Based on my experiences, I would say "no".  But this, I think, is really where the debate is.

Interesting proposition.  With a few tweaks it may be a very valid proposal for implementation.  As the RCMP send members off on UN, other Humanitarian Missions, and Tours around the world, the opportunities to have some form of cross training and pre-deployment training done would be significantly improved. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've met  (and been "interrogated" by) some wonkey MPs (and as a caveat I have acquaintances and great friends in both RCMP and MPs) but I would trust MPs handling policing in the CF way way before the RCMP.

The RCMP appear to often have an "untouchable" mindset.  Some of the stuff they get caught doing, especially out west, really blows my mind.

 

[Mountie]

The RCMP appear to often have an "untouchable" mindset.  Some of the stuff they get caught doing, especially out west, really blows my mind.

Don't paint us all with the same brush.  There are always a few bad apples.  Today's access to cell phone cameras combined with the internet makes the problem seem magnified. There area always bad apples in any organization.  We have approximately 20,000 sworn police officers.  That's 1/3 of the police in Canada (62,000).  So do we have 1/3 of the bad apples.  Probably.  I don't dispute that.  I just think too many people compare us to other police services on an even playing field, when our numbers aren't even close to the same.  I say fire everyone of those bad apples.  But its still a very small percentage of the Force.

I've also been policing around a Canadian Forces Base for the past 7 years.  I've had more than one soldier get out of line with me.  I usually ask them if they would treat the MPs like this back on the base.  The usual answer is "NO...I'd get shit kicked if I acted like that to them".  Then for fun we ask them if they would like us to call their RSM to straight them out? For some reason this garnishes instant cooperation and respect.  ;D

I'm not saying the RCMP should necessarily take over policing the CF bases, but if the budget and/or PYs must be cut from somewhere and this is a cost saving option that would prevent frontline units from being cut then I think the RCMP could easily handle the task.  I think it would be fair to say that half the personnel from most bases live off base anyway.  Is there really a huge difference between the RCMP responding to a domestic dispute 5 miles off base or on base?  Or the RCMP responding to a bar fight in town with CF personnel vs at the junior ranks mess?  I don't really think so. 

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JesseWZ]

Some bases (Halifax, Esquimalt, Winnipeg, Edmonton, etc) are located within or very close to an urban center. Do Municipal police (Victoria PD, etc) then take over in areas where there is not a significant RCMP presence? My det has roughly 40 badged officers. Thats four (understrength) shifts, as well as Comm R, Trg, etc. sections. Can Westshore RCMP (a slightly larger sized det) be able to take over? The CF by its very nature has some very unique challenges both for policing and MP tasks.

Will the RCMP/Municipal Police then do the tasks not typically expected of "cops" such as Security Screenings, Responding to Building Insecurities, Lost IT hardware with classified materials on it, etc. What about Close Protection, Tactical Aircraft Security, and other MP tasks?

I'm not trying to start a bunfight, I'm legitimately curious. In any given day, CFB Esquimalt and its lodger units can have upwards of 15 000 people in its AOR. That can include cadet camps out at Albert Head, Rocky Point Ammo Depot, the ships, foreign ships docked, etc with some very unique security challenges.

Personally, I have seen many poor MPs and many outstanding MPs. Like Mountie said, the bad apples often are a disservice to the excellent ones. I *think* the CF would see their level of service drop rolling over MPs serving specifically the CF to the RCMP or OPP or what have you, which will be serving a much larger AOR.

My 2 cents.

 

[RCDtpr]

If the MP's were to give up policing roles on CFB's I would imagine policing would be taken over by the closest police service.  I highly doubt the RCMP would create det's at CFB's in Ontario just to police bases.  You would, in my opinion, see the OPP Upper Ottawa Valley take over Pet, Nottawasaga OPP in Borden, Quinte West OPP in Trenton etc etc.  Is this a bad thing?  Maybe not.

That said, having children, I like being outside and in the course of a few hours see the MP's drive by my house 3-4 times.  I can GUARANTEE if Upper Ottawa Valley OPP took over policing at CFB Petawawa, I would MAYBE see a cruiser drive past my house once a day.  Do the MP's in their current role potentially waste money? Sure.  Have probably 85% of MP's forgot what being a field soldier is like?  Sure, but I like knowing that if I called 911, MP's would be at my house in under 5 minutes.  Call the OPP for a 911 and you are looking and potentially much longer wait times.

Have fun explaining to a victim that they couldn't receive help earlier because higher ups didn't like the fact that the MP's primary was was policing not soldiering, and they cost a few extra $ and therefore changed their mandate.

 

[QV]

Some bases (Halifax, Esquimalt, Winnipeg, Edmonton, etc) are located within or very close to an urban center. Do Municipal police (Victoria PD, etc) then take over in areas where there is not a significant RCMP presence? My det has roughly 40 badged officers. Thats four (understrength) shifts, as well as Comm R, Trg, etc. sections. Can Westshore RCMP (a slightly larger sized det) be able to take over? The CF by its very nature has some very unique challenges both for policing and MP tasks.

Will the RCMP/Municipal Police then do the tasks not typically expected of "cops" such as Security Screenings, Responding to Building Insecurities, Lost IT hardware with classified materials on it, etc. What about Close Protection, Tactical Aircraft Security, and other MP tasks?

I'm not trying to start a bunfight, I'm legitimately curious. In any given day, CFB Esquimalt and its lodger units can have upwards of 15 000 people in its AOR. That can include cadet camps out at Albert Head, Rocky Point Ammo Depot, the ships, foreign ships docked, etc with some very unique security challenges.

Personally, I have seen many poor MPs and many outstanding MPs. Like Mountie said, the bad apples often are a disservice to the excellent ones. I *think* the CF would see their level of service drop rolling over MPs serving specifically the CF to the RCMP or OPP or what have you, which will be serving a much larger AOR.

My 2 cents.

I would think MP would retain all those tasks with the exception of domestic policing.  Policing requires an organization's full attention.  The MP have too many other jobs that the CF would have them do and that takes away commitment to policing.  Give it to a civilian police agency, all of them only exist to police domestically. 

As for all the little extra services MP do, well I doubt any independent separate organization free and clear from the CF chain of command would do any of it.  I'm talking about all the non police minutia every guardhouse deals with on a daily basis to keep people happy.  And that is just an unfortunate (or fortunate?) consequence of getting rid of MP from domestic policing. 

 

[JesseWZ]

Out of curiousity...  QV, are you an MP?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

In my experience, the basic problem the MPs suffer from is that their policing role often puts them in conflict with their security and force protection roles.

MPs are not answerable to the CoC for how and when they police.  They are, however, answerable for the other two roles.  The problem is, the MPs will often abandon security and force protection for policing, hanging a Base Commander out to dry in the process.

My solution?  Contract out the  policing role to the RCMP.  Even in non-RCMP provinces, there is always a federal RCMP presence. They can work  for those Divisions.  The remaining MP PYs can then focus on field policing, POW handling, force protection and security. We can then get rid of CFMP Gp and put MPs back where they belong- accountable and responsible to the CoC.