"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"
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Oh wow. Are either of you an MP or do you know any MP's out there? The simple fact of the matter is that you will never see the RCMP replace the MP's because it comes down to simple manpower.. Te RCMP do not have enough to Police both cilival and Military law. There having enough trouoble replacing there aging police officer's right now.
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judging by your profile, I'd say that either of them have more experience with, and knowledge of, MPs than you do. Your posts may draw more intelligent responses if they were spelled in one of the official languages, by the way.Cyr said:
preach it, brother!
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The RCMP is supposed to be a paramilitary Police force, but if someone could point out one aspect of the RCMP being paramilitary to me, I welcome them to. I would love to be in the RCMP and be able to contirbute to the Military, but in a much larger fashion that will never happen. IE going on ALL tours, acting as base RP's or regimental RP's. Members of Army.ca get breaks on the speed violations, of course... ;D
McG
Army.ca Legend
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I see no reason why the Base MP detachments could not be replaced by RCMP detachments while the MPs exists solely in the Bdes & units of the field force and on board ships.GO!!! said:
The government can move paid positions from the CF to the RCMP. It would be up to the RCMP to decide if they wanted to allow some MPs to transfer to the force with their positions. If not, those MPs could be compulsorily forced to OT to another CF trade.Cyr said:
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unlikely, as the RCMP (in fact no Police force in Canada, to my knowledge) does not recognize CF MP training as a legitimate LEO qualification. (What does that tell you?)MCG said:
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I agree with the above suggestions. Let the RCs handle the police work in Canada so the MPs can focus on their POW human pyramid building operationally relevant skills, that's what they wear the relish for isn't it? Did any of you MPs join to write parking tickets in Lancaster Park?
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Sorry guys - I don't buy it...
As much as we may or may not disdain the work of our MP's - they still provide a more visible presence than any RCMP detachment. In Comox - I would be lucky to see one of the 5 squad cars about - I know that on base I would see one at least every hour. IF we did away with the MP section on base - the local RCMP detachment would get 10 more officers and the service would still remain sparse at best.
Military Police can and will place charges in accordance with the CSD and the CCC - they don't call in the RCMP when they want to arrest someone - they are big enough to do this themselves.
As for doing away with the CSD and NDA - what crack are you smoking? As a formed military body, we require these very specific rules in order to maintain cohesion and effectiveness in all phases of deployment. What governs a troopie to follow his section commander's orders? Canada's Criminal Code certainly doesn't contain any laws contrary to following a superiors orders - the NDA does.
It is unfortunate that you have witnessed crimes going un-punished in your neck of the woods - why do you continue to let it happen? You're not going to kill your career if you produce a well thought-out memo/document to the local SAMPO - why bitch about it here as a anonymous member when you could be putting your typing skills to work...
As much as we may or may not disdain the work of our MP's - they still provide a more visible presence than any RCMP detachment. In Comox - I would be lucky to see one of the 5 squad cars about - I know that on base I would see one at least every hour. IF we did away with the MP section on base - the local RCMP detachment would get 10 more officers and the service would still remain sparse at best.
Military Police can and will place charges in accordance with the CSD and the CCC - they don't call in the RCMP when they want to arrest someone - they are big enough to do this themselves.
As for doing away with the CSD and NDA - what crack are you smoking? As a formed military body, we require these very specific rules in order to maintain cohesion and effectiveness in all phases of deployment. What governs a troopie to follow his section commander's orders? Canada's Criminal Code certainly doesn't contain any laws contrary to following a superiors orders - the NDA does.
It is unfortunate that you have witnessed crimes going un-punished in your neck of the woods - why do you continue to let it happen? You're not going to kill your career if you produce a well thought-out memo/document to the local SAMPO - why bitch about it here as a anonymous member when you could be putting your typing skills to work...
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Zoomie said:
When I broached the subject on the MP forum, I made it clear that it was not a reform due to performance, but rather one to allow them to focus on operational duties.
The MP Det would still be a formed unit on the base - the only thing to change would be the guys in it. No positions would be "bartered off" to the local municipal detachment. The CF would be paying the RCMP for Police Services, and would expect to get it in return.
Yes, but do we want to focus on this at the expense of other tasks? Look at US MP's in Iraq - driving convoys, dealing with PW's, foot patrols, fighting and killing Hadji, and earning Silver Stars; I don't see Policing anywhere here.
Remember how you were skeptical of guys claiming a plane can do patrol/SAR/transport all in one? I'd argue the same thing should apply here.
Whoh, hold on a minute - where did this come from. Who said do away with the CSD and the NDA. I said that it is, and should, be enforced through the C-of-C. When bupkiss doesn't cut his hair, is insubordinate, gets an ND, or goes AWOL we don't call the MP's, the C-of-C deals with it (at least, this has been what I've seen with all these instances).
When serious infractions are committed, they usually fall back on the CCC. IE: When you are given your ROE briefings, you are told that if you use excessive force and kill somebody, you'll be charged in a Criminal Court in Canada. The RCMP do this everyday when they charge criminals - if we have a criminal problem within the CF, we can prosecute as we usually do, only the guy executing the law will have a different hat on - we are all on the same team.
Obviously, Military Policing requires some specialization, but since the RCMP handle a myriad of policing (traffic, maritime, criminal, etc, etc), I'm sure the extra skill set will not be too hard for them to graft onto their organization.
I have to say that allowing the MP's to focus on more job specific things such as operational jobs, Pow, and of all things base security. When was the last time you seen a MP on the base gate. When you go to other countries they have MP's and or soldiers with guns and inspection mirrors at the points of entry to all facilities. They have a job to do and that is ensuring the security of the forces with in their structure. They have failed terribly at this role over the past few years and will continue to do so until they rewrite their job description. We have all read articles on how the MP's want better pay and also more duties and be respected with in the national police authority. Well after the bungling of investigations and lack of proper training and real world experience they have seen to slipped the way side of well paid parking and speeding ticketmen and women. When a serious investigation is done it is always handed over to NIS or some other group such as the RCMP for investigation. Why cant they(MP's) do this function themselves. well they do not have the proper training nor the most important part the large enough body to maintain any skills that they do acquire for these investigations. Finger printing for an investigation is an art, you either can or cant do it. So is photo taking of a accident scene, it has to be properly or it wont stand up in court. Now how many times do MP's deal withthese scenarios. Not very often. So why not hand over the criminal side of investigations to the RCMP. Allow the MP's to fully train and carry out their assigned field duties, as mentioned earlier. The only thing i seen the MP's doing over seas was handing out speeding tickets and driving around in a new SUV. One even had the gall to complain when they had to drive an Iltis off road to direct traffic as the Brigade was on maneuvers, ha the face full of exhaust smoke made them pack up. They have done very little training with in the brigades and such need to more intregrated into such. They after all are part of the team last item i checked. The comment made about the Para Military RCMP. Last i understood the RCMP fell under the Department of National Defense for security of Canada, as does The CF, along with the Security branch of the Commas and many other departments. The RCMP can may and shall be called up to operate in time of war in a foregin country under DND. They would not be a para military outfit as insinuated earlier, but they would still a professional police force to which many country's envy in their ability to carry out on a high level of competence and efficiency. The MP's should be put back into the field and given green uniforms once again. Carry out their duties and supprot the all arms battle. My opinion and mine only. I am sorry to say i have dealt with them to many times to give them full credit as a professional police officer.
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It's obvious that a number of members on this form are grossly misinformed about the capability and role of the Military Police. It is also obvious from the tone of some of the posts that a number have an "axe to grind" and don't think we are real soldiers. First before I comment my background: I have operational tours with the UN and NATO as a Military Policeman, NIS and War Crimes Investigator. I have 6 years in the CFNIS and during my tour was seconded to the RCMP GIS and Major Crime unit here in Edmonton. I have field experience (CAR)(and remuster from 011) and base patrol experience as an MP all over the country. I have worked with several civilian police forces as a result of my job and I can tell you that in my 23 years I have never heard a disparaging word about the MPs from my civilian counterparts, once they have had an opportunity to work with us. So I feel I have a rather unique perspective on the Military Police and their capabilities in comparison with our civilian counterparts.
First I'll address the issue of professional competence, as this has been alluded to a few times with comments about unsolved crimes and MPs not doing their job. Most of these comments can be taken with a VERY large grain of salt, are allegorical in nature, and have no basis in fact. In fact most of the criticism of the branch comes not from other Police Dept's (who see us as extremely competent believe it or not) but from junior members in the CF who have very little knowledge or understanding of the concept of policing in the CF ,and have a hard time with Cpls issuing them traffic tickets. However, to be realistic all police forces have unsolved crimes and the RCMP are no better than the Military Police, probably worse, because unlike the RCMP, the military doesn't have to pay overtime and we can dedicate much more manpower and resources to a serious crime more so than they can.
On to training, our QL 3 training encompasses 6 months plus a provisional employment program (probation). We have a code of conduct which we must abide by and a Military Police Complaints Commission (made up of civilians) where complaints can be made against military police or by military police who feel interference from the chain of command. We have the all the professional oversight, ethics and training that our civilian counterparts do. And in regards to professional competency; well we have a member training RCMP recruits at Depot in Regina at this very moment, and members seconded to the RCMP units across Canada. In the past we have also had members teach at the Canadian Police College. (So much for that myth).
Cost has been mentioned a few times. The RCMP would be vastly more expensive than the MP and bases would get less police coverage. Consider the base salary of an RCMP Constable (approaching $70,000) plus overtime, compare that to a Cpl. If a large base like Edmonton were to hand over policing to the RCMP the nearest detachment is in Morinville 20 min away. PMQ residents MAY, MAY see a Constable drive thru their area a couple of times a week, and that would only be to respond to a call (no proactive policing). The ratio of members to the civilian population is 1 constable to approx 1100 people. The static population of CFB Edmonton would be entitled to 1.5 -2 constables, vice an MP Det of 25. Simply put, PMQ residents and Base Commanders could expect a significant reduction in police service. (CFB Gagetown is a good example of this) No responce to barking dog complaints, prowlers, Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, noise complaints, minor thefts, B&E's etc either. The CF has, to put it bluntly "Cadillac Policing Services" at this present time. Just to give you an example; recently here in Edmonton the Military Police solved the largest armed robbery in the area's history, which occurred at the Credit Union, the MP were on scene in minutes. The individual initially got away, however as a result of good police work, the MP caught the suspect, recovered almost all the money and solved several crimes for Edmonton City Police and the RCMP. The criminal's mistake: committing a robbery not in a little town with one RCMP member on duty but in a "little town"(CFB Edmonton) that could commit a task force of 25 MP plus the local NIS to solve the crime. The CF didn't have to pay overtime or worry about members getting time off etc.
Another point that was raised; was that if we got rid of MP policing more of them could do what they were meant to do; PW handling and Route signing. That's part of our role however I've been in for 23 years and I haven't signed one route yet overseas, neither have I guarded huge PW cages or PWs at all for that manner. In fact in an operational theatre, it was my technical skills as a policeman that were requested by Commanders (solving crime)not my ability to pound routes signs into the ground. And once all the troops are in situ the MP revert to a policing role anyway, if you take the domestic policing role from them at home where will they get their experience?
Major Crime services was another point some mentioned a combination of NIS/RCMP. Again cost and manpower would be a limiting factor as many of the crimes that are investigated by the MP would not be considered serious enough by the RCMP to commit resources to. And other than the one RCMP Inspector seconded to the NIS thee RMCP have no desire to second members to the CF because of manning issues of their own. Plus their salaries would have to be paid by the CF (expensive)
Someone mentioned that if the RCMP were policing they could charge CF members under the Criminal Code vice the NDA, well I've been doing that my whole career, MP testify in civil court all the time. However we must realize that NDA exists for a reason; a tool for Commanders to instill discipline. I believe someone mentioned that NDA offences could be investigated by the unit, really? Would you want a member/officer of your own Regiment with a rudimentary knowledge of the law (at best) and your Charter Rights etc. investigating you? Or would you rather have an impartial third party who has training.
Finally (I have rambled on enough) one last comment I really take umbrage with the inferences by some members on this form that we (MP) are somehow not "real soldiers". I have very good friends who bombed up with the infantry in Afghanistan and accompanied them on a number of missions. As a member of the CAR, I and the other tradesmen jumped and carried the same equipment as the grunts so give me a break with all soldier stuff. Just because my fellow tradesmen wear a black uniform doesn't mean that their any less dedicated than the "real soldiers".
First I'll address the issue of professional competence, as this has been alluded to a few times with comments about unsolved crimes and MPs not doing their job. Most of these comments can be taken with a VERY large grain of salt, are allegorical in nature, and have no basis in fact. In fact most of the criticism of the branch comes not from other Police Dept's (who see us as extremely competent believe it or not) but from junior members in the CF who have very little knowledge or understanding of the concept of policing in the CF ,and have a hard time with Cpls issuing them traffic tickets. However, to be realistic all police forces have unsolved crimes and the RCMP are no better than the Military Police, probably worse, because unlike the RCMP, the military doesn't have to pay overtime and we can dedicate much more manpower and resources to a serious crime more so than they can.
On to training, our QL 3 training encompasses 6 months plus a provisional employment program (probation). We have a code of conduct which we must abide by and a Military Police Complaints Commission (made up of civilians) where complaints can be made against military police or by military police who feel interference from the chain of command. We have the all the professional oversight, ethics and training that our civilian counterparts do. And in regards to professional competency; well we have a member training RCMP recruits at Depot in Regina at this very moment, and members seconded to the RCMP units across Canada. In the past we have also had members teach at the Canadian Police College. (So much for that myth).
Cost has been mentioned a few times. The RCMP would be vastly more expensive than the MP and bases would get less police coverage. Consider the base salary of an RCMP Constable (approaching $70,000) plus overtime, compare that to a Cpl. If a large base like Edmonton were to hand over policing to the RCMP the nearest detachment is in Morinville 20 min away. PMQ residents MAY, MAY see a Constable drive thru their area a couple of times a week, and that would only be to respond to a call (no proactive policing). The ratio of members to the civilian population is 1 constable to approx 1100 people. The static population of CFB Edmonton would be entitled to 1.5 -2 constables, vice an MP Det of 25. Simply put, PMQ residents and Base Commanders could expect a significant reduction in police service. (CFB Gagetown is a good example of this) No responce to barking dog complaints, prowlers, Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, noise complaints, minor thefts, B&E's etc either. The CF has, to put it bluntly "Cadillac Policing Services" at this present time. Just to give you an example; recently here in Edmonton the Military Police solved the largest armed robbery in the area's history, which occurred at the Credit Union, the MP were on scene in minutes. The individual initially got away, however as a result of good police work, the MP caught the suspect, recovered almost all the money and solved several crimes for Edmonton City Police and the RCMP. The criminal's mistake: committing a robbery not in a little town with one RCMP member on duty but in a "little town"(CFB Edmonton) that could commit a task force of 25 MP plus the local NIS to solve the crime. The CF didn't have to pay overtime or worry about members getting time off etc.
Another point that was raised; was that if we got rid of MP policing more of them could do what they were meant to do; PW handling and Route signing. That's part of our role however I've been in for 23 years and I haven't signed one route yet overseas, neither have I guarded huge PW cages or PWs at all for that manner. In fact in an operational theatre, it was my technical skills as a policeman that were requested by Commanders (solving crime)not my ability to pound routes signs into the ground. And once all the troops are in situ the MP revert to a policing role anyway, if you take the domestic policing role from them at home where will they get their experience?
Major Crime services was another point some mentioned a combination of NIS/RCMP. Again cost and manpower would be a limiting factor as many of the crimes that are investigated by the MP would not be considered serious enough by the RCMP to commit resources to. And other than the one RCMP Inspector seconded to the NIS thee RMCP have no desire to second members to the CF because of manning issues of their own. Plus their salaries would have to be paid by the CF (expensive)
Someone mentioned that if the RCMP were policing they could charge CF members under the Criminal Code vice the NDA, well I've been doing that my whole career, MP testify in civil court all the time. However we must realize that NDA exists for a reason; a tool for Commanders to instill discipline. I believe someone mentioned that NDA offences could be investigated by the unit, really? Would you want a member/officer of your own Regiment with a rudimentary knowledge of the law (at best) and your Charter Rights etc. investigating you? Or would you rather have an impartial third party who has training.
Finally (I have rambled on enough) one last comment I really take umbrage with the inferences by some members on this form that we (MP) are somehow not "real soldiers". I have very good friends who bombed up with the infantry in Afghanistan and accompanied them on a number of missions. As a member of the CAR, I and the other tradesmen jumped and carried the same equipment as the grunts so give me a break with all soldier stuff. Just because my fellow tradesmen wear a black uniform doesn't mean that their any less dedicated than the "real soldiers".
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Jumper that was great, although i've always respected the Mp's, this gave me a greater insight as to what they do and what duties they have and will perform. Thanks for that great post. 
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Jumper:
Well said - well done.
BTW - when were you with the "Sherrif's Department" in the Airborne? I have a niggling feeling I may have met you, shall we say "professionally", in the '80s. That meeting was actually one of the incidents which gave rise to my defence of MPs in another thread. PM me if you want to pursue the topic.
Gentle winds, soft landings.
Retired CC
Well said - well done.
BTW - when were you with the "Sherrif's Department" in the Airborne? I have a niggling feeling I may have met you, shall we say "professionally", in the '80s. That meeting was actually one of the incidents which gave rise to my defence of MPs in another thread. PM me if you want to pursue the topic.
Gentle winds, soft landings.
Retired CC
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Jumper I can list at least 7 instances I know of that people walked due to the MP in question botching it.
I know some good MP's and some bad ones - happens everywhere inc civilian policing. We had MP's in Afghan begging to go out on stuff with us since they where sick of doing traffic accident investigations...
I know some good MP's and some bad ones - happens everywhere inc civilian policing. We had MP's in Afghan begging to go out on stuff with us since they where sick of doing traffic accident investigations...
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Jumper, I am glad to see your post on this topic, it helps to have someone who has that perspective provide it.
I for one remain astounded at the idea of using the civil force to replace the military. It would be a major mistake for the reasons that have already been raised. For me it isn't a question of investigative competence, in my view that is a red herring.
I for one remain astounded at the idea of using the civil force to replace the military. It would be a major mistake for the reasons that have already been raised. For me it isn't a question of investigative competence, in my view that is a red herring.
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Paracowboy, my post in no way is intended to insult civil LEOs. In the BC Workers Compensation Board stats there are many other occupations that are regarded as having more workplace hazards than civil law enforcement - health care workers for example, generally have considerably higher workplace health problems and potential for fatalities.
As I said police work is dangerous, whether civil or military and I have great respect for anyone who follows that form of service. I do how ever see the two roles as completely different. There is a different commitment from being a civilian and a soldier and like or not, RCMpolice officers are not soldiers. The civil police are generally tasked to enforce the law and conduct investigations to effect arrests, and in the larger perspective the role of the military is to close with and destroy the enemy. The MPs are an important element of that role as well as enforcing the law and investigating violations of it. And, no I am not interested in the French police model for this country.
As I said police work is dangerous, whether civil or military and I have great respect for anyone who follows that form of service. I do how ever see the two roles as completely different. There is a different commitment from being a civilian and a soldier and like or not, RCMpolice officers are not soldiers. The civil police are generally tasked to enforce the law and conduct investigations to effect arrests, and in the larger perspective the role of the military is to close with and destroy the enemy. The MPs are an important element of that role as well as enforcing the law and investigating violations of it. And, no I am not interested in the French police model for this country.
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