New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[daftandbarmy]

Some of the delays at Seaspan are design related and I am not sure who is responsible for those design issues, as far as I am aware the design is given to the yard and they build to it and argue over smaller issues. Rumour has it that there are stability issues with the designs of the fisheries vessel, which would be of no surprise as most government vessels are top heavy.

Current OFSV #2 https://twitter.com/seaspan/status/1027230643191799808

JSS gallery is up http://www.seaspan.com/nss-progress-galleries/nss-photo-gallery-jss-1

I see what you did there

 

[Dale Denton]

So what should a 'refreshed' shipbuilding policy look like? How do we fill in these gaps, reduce time to get to he steel cutting, and save money at the same time? All while keeping the $$$ in Canadian shipyards?

Anyone have suggestions?

What if 1 shipyard built the hulls and put blocks together, and another outfitted the systems? Or do we throw more projects at them?

 

[Underway]

The simple, undeniable fact is that neither Seaspan nor Irving have any capacity to build anything new in the next 10yrs...

So that huge brand new ship about to be launched in September sitting on the jetty outside Irving is my imagination?  Or perhaps the currently floating red and white vessel alongside Seaspan is an illusion?

I understand the frustration but please try to tone down the exaggeration and hyperbole.  Accuracy helps everyone in their discussion!  :nod:

 

[Czech_pivo]

So that huge brand new ship about to be launched in September sitting on the jetty outside Irving is my imagination?  Or perhaps the currently floating red and white vessel alongside Seaspan is an illusion?

I understand the frustration but please try to tone down the exaggeration and hyperbole.  Accuracy helps everyone in their discussion!  :nod:

I was referring to the fact that they cannot take on any more work than what they already have and realistically re-build the entire icebreaker fleet, the Kingston's or anything else within the needed time frame. 
Go back and look at when Seaspan can realistically begin building The Def and have it ready for action - its like 8yrs from now, if all goes smoothly.  The LSL will be how old by then, 55yrs, 60yrs old?  The last of the CSC's is scheduled to be completed in the mid 2040's, close to 25yrs from now.  HMCS Ottawa will be close to 45-50yrs old then - do you think that it might not suffer the same fate as the Algonquin, full of cracks and unable to sail? They do not have the ability to take on anymore work  - unless they can increase capacity - in order to rebuild the icebreakers, the Kingston's or anything else that is needed.

 

[CBH99]

Not to wade into a discussion between Underway & Czech that I simply observed, but I have to side with Czech here...I think you misunderstood what was being said there Underway, if you read up a few posts.

I think it was pretty clear that neither Seaspan or Irving can take on any MORE work than they already have booked - and that Davie will most likely need to be included in any future contracts, as the current allotment of work has both Irving & Seaspan busy for the next 10yrs or so.

So if the CCG needs icebreakers or conversions, if the Kingstons need replacing, etc etc - Davie should be included since they are a national shipyard (one of the best in North America, mind you) - and the legal issues that prevented them from initially being included are now behind them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not to wade into a discussion between Underway & Czech that I simply observed, but I have to side with Czech here...I think you misunderstood what was being said there Underway, if you read up a few posts.

I think it was pretty clear that neither Seaspan or Irving can take on any MORE work than they already have booked - and that Davie will most likely need to be included in any future contracts, as the current allotment of work has both Irving & Seaspan busy for the next 10yrs or so.

So if the CCG needs icebreakers or conversions, if the Kingstons need replacing, etc etc - Davie should be included since they are a national shipyard (one of the best in North America, mind you) - and the legal issues that prevented them from initially being included are now behind them.

And, concurrently, we should work hard to get orders from other countries, and align trades training accordingly,  so our ship building 'prowess' never declines again through want of orders....

 

[Underway]

Not to wade into a discussion between Underway & Czech that I simply observed, but I have to side with Czech here...I think you misunderstood what was being said there Underway, if you read up a few posts.

I think it was pretty clear that neither Seaspan or Irving can take on any MORE work than they already have booked - and that Davie will most likely need to be included in any future contracts, as the current allotment of work has both Irving & Seaspan busy for the next 10yrs or so.

So if the CCG needs icebreakers or conversions, if the Kingstons need replacing, etc etc - Davie should be included since they are a national shipyard (one of the best in North America, mind you) - and the legal issues that prevented them from initially being included are now behind them.

I only took issue with the hyperbole not the thoughts behind it.  Completely agree that there needs to be a more speedy delivery.  The Halifax Class were designed for 25 years.  We are there now and dealing with massive corrosion issues across the fleet (mostly on the East Coast, mainly due to different deck coverings oddly enough). 

Having Davie fill gaps in the Coast Guard is an excellent idea.  The fleets are so run down there is plenty of work for everyone right now.  As for Kingston replacements those boats are doing rather well.  FMF and the contractors are doing a good job to keep them going.  I haven't heard a single person in the RCN talk about Kingston replacement as a concern (yet), though I have heard talk about sub replacement since Strong Secure Engaged came out (even floating the Australia will be looking for partners discussion).

 

[MilEME09]

Partner with the aussies on subs? Might be easier to sell as a commonwealth ally

 

[Czech_pivo]

And, concurrently, we should work hard to get orders from other countries, and align trades training accordingly,  so our ship building 'prowess' never declines again through want of orders....

Amen -
Would love to see if we can sell something to the Kiwis or the Chileans since both of them have trusted us to do refits on their naval vessels.
But again, unless Iring can increase capacity, I don’t see how they will have time to build anything extra.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Amen -
Would love to see if we can sell something to the Kiwis or the Chileans since both of them have trusted us to do refits on their naval vessels.
But again, unless Iring can increase capacity, I don’t see how they will have time to build anything extra.

In WW2 we did just fine increasing capacity real fast:

'Canada in 1940 had just started to build patrol vessels for the protection of its own coasts, but Britain soon placed orders for 26 ten-thousand-tonne cargo ships and soon after orders for naval escorts and minesweepers. This was just the beginning, as Britain made clear it needed Canada to build as many naval and merchant ships as it possibly could. The practically non-existent Canadian interwar shipbuilding industry - three shipyards employing fewer than 4,000 men - expanded to 90 plants on the East and West Coasts, the Great Lakes and even inland. More than 126,000 men and women were employed. In all, the shipyards built 4,047 naval vessels, most of them landing craft but including over 300 anti-submarine warships, among them 4 Tribal class destroyers, and 410 cargo ships. At its wartime peak in September 1943, the industry was able to deliver the ten-thousand-tonne SS Fort Romaine in a stunning 58 days from the start of construction.'
https://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/newspapers/canadawar/shipping_e.shtml

The global supply chain is moving towards 'autonomous' cargo ships, as I understand it, and no doubt this will fast become a main feature of China's 'Belt and Road' initiative: https://phys.org/news/2017-09-unmanned-ships-cargo-industry-dearly.html

Here's our big chance to leverage a big domestic shipping program for longer term success.

 

[MilEME09]

Ships in ww2 were also less sophisticated then a modern warship. A Lee Enfield No. 4 mk 1 would take less time to manufacture then say a timberwolf.

Amen -
Would love to see if we can sell something to the Kiwis or the Chileans since both of them have trusted us to do refits on their naval vessels.
But again, unless Iring can increase capacity, I don’t see how they will have time to build anything extra.

Not unless they wanna wait 25 years, are any of our shipbuilders even in a position to expand capacity like some of us have suggested? for example does Davie still have the Tracy and Vikers sites? Can any smaller facilities or sites be asked to help with construction for example the Port Weller Dry Dock facilities owned by Saint Lawrence Seaway or Theriault Shipyard?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Bruce MacKinnon, in the Halifax Chronicle Herald, draws this conclusion: http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/editorial-cartoon/2018-08-16-editorial-cartoon#

 

[Czech_pivo]

Here are some back of the envelope facts, gathered off of Irving's own website re the AOPS

1) 3 Sept, 2015 first steel cut on the first AOPS
    1.1) 10 June, 2016 first 2 of the 4 main engines installed (9 months duration)
            1.2) Dec, 2017 final mega block assembled (27 months duration)
                  1.3) Sept ??, 2018 first AOPS is launched (36 months duration)
Start to launch - 3yrs duration

2) 26 Aug, 2016 first steel cut on the second AOPS
      2.1) April, 2018 first 2 of the 4 main engines installed (timeline under the 1st AOPS was 9 months - here its 20 months)
            2.2) Final mega block assembled ?? - using the timeline established under the 1st AOPS, 27 months, this should occur in Nov of 2018.....
                    2.3) ?? second AOPS is launched - using the timeline established under the 1st AOPS, this should occur in Aug of 2019
Start to launch - ??

3) Dec 2017, first steel cut on the third AOPS
      3.1) ?? first 2 of the 4 main engines installed - again, using the timeline under the first AOPS, this should occur in Sept 2018 OR if using the timeline under the 2nd AOPS, July, 2019....)
            3.2) Final mega block assembled ?? - using the timeline established under the 1st AOPS, this should occur March 2020
                    3.3) ?? third AOPS is launched - again using the timeline under the 1st AOPS, this should occur in Dec 2020.
Start to launch - ??

Yes - I fully agree/accept that this is a crude methodology to be using, but its all that is readily available.  Using the information that is on Irving's own website one can conclude that timeline established on the 1st AOPS has already slipped on the 2nd AOPS and its too early to tell if its slipping on the 3rd AOPS but I'm willing to bet that it is.

So, are the timelines slipping because Irving is having a hard time getting up to speed (surely the final mega block being wider than the rest of the ship by what, 40mm can't be helping), or are they slowing down the delivery times in order to 'close' any 'gap' between when they finish that last (will it be 5 or 6 AOPS?) ship and start the first CSC in the mid 2020's? 

 

[FSTO]

Bruce MacKinnon, in the Halifax Chronicle Herald, draws this conclusion: http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/editorial-cartoon/2018-08-16-editorial-cartoon#

Maybe if Irving and the province of Nova Scotia would quit griping about non-existent threats to their piece of the shipbuilding pie and get to bloody work they already have.
Remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth when Seaspan acquired the submarine refit contract? Newsflash Irving and NS, you folks on the east coast do not have the divine right to every government shipbuilding contract. You actually have to produce a quality product!!!! 

 

[dapaterson]

Newsflash Irving and NS, you folks on the east coast do not have the divine right to every government shipbuilding contract. You actually have to produce a quality product!!!!

You're new here, aren't you?

 

[Lumber]

You're new here, aren't you?

People who think the Laurentian elites are bad should come to the east coast and bare witness to how strongly a few rich and influential people can dominate huge sectors of industry.

 

[FSTO]

You're new here, aren't you?

I have my moments. ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ships in ww2 were also less sophisticated then a modern warship. A Lee Enfield No. 4 mk 1 would take less time to manufacture then say a timberwolf.

Not unless they wanna wait 25 years, are any of our shipbuilders even in a position to expand capacity like some of us have suggested? for example does Davie still have the Tracy and Vikers sites? Can any smaller facilities or sites be asked to help with construction for example the Port Weller Dry Dock facilities owned by Saint Lawrence Seaway or Theriault Shipyard?

The rifle comparison is not a great one, as that modern techniques make it easier than before. In some ways, modern ship building techniques make it easier as well. The 3D virtual design helps solve a lot of issues beforehand for example. What bugs me is that with all the computing power, we still build unstable designs.

 

[Edward Campbell]

You're new here, aren't you?

I remember ~ during the TRUMP era ~ when Irving was our "fair haired boy" and Davie was the devil incarnate. Davie drove it self/was driven into (near?) bankruptcy partially, I think, be being too "entitled" while Irving was (thirtyish+ years ago) showing real entrepreneurship ... now, perhaps, the tables are turned.

But the politics of "regional development" in Canada are totally destructive ... when governments pick winners everyone ends up losing.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

People who think the Laurentian elites are bad should come to the east coast and bare witness to how strongly a few rich and influential people can dominate huge sectors of industry.

Oland, McCain, Irving, Sobey, Eddy, etc.  Pick your poison!