New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Rainbow1910]

You have a life, steady schedule, a generally happy workplace.

There’s also this really strange and foreign thing to CAF members, it’s called a union.

 

[quadrapiper]

Well, the "franco" can operate 100% in French, using the proper French terminology, and be based for their whole life in a francophone province or area, for one thing.

When the RCN catches up to that concept, in view of the fact that there is a strong maritime tradition in Quebec in particular, they will get 25 to 30 % greater applications of qualified applicants.

Is there anywhere, money not an object, in Quebec that would work as a third RCN base? Could have some value for NAVRES training accessibility, on top of redundancy/added capacity, and providing a posting of choice for Francophones.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Levis. Co-located with Davie (lots of room). From December to March, you just co-locate with the rest of the Fleet at Halifax for those units not in refit. If you get the CDC as ice capable as Topshee wants them, then you only have to re-locate the one or two "franco" RCD for that period.

 

[suffolkowner]

I suppose it makes good sense as Cape Breton is at the main entry point to the Gulf but I wonder, are you better to start where the ice is i.e. the river itself or steam towards the start of the ice. I am totally not familiar with ice anywhere but in whiskey, skating rinks and Georgian Bay

I think the Sydney base is just for maintenance and that the 2 Polars will be homeported out of St Johns?

 

[Furniture]

Levis. Co-located with Davie (lots of room). From December to March, you just co-locate with the rest of the Fleet at Halifax for those units not in refit. If you get the CDC as ice capable as Topshee wants them, then you only have to re-locate the one or two "franco" RCD for that period.

Forcing the sailors to spend their winters in Halifax would kill any potential morale boost associated with having a base in Levis. Forcing Halifax sailors to stand duties on ships that aren't their for the entire winter would kill morale in Halifax.

AOPVS might work for Quebec basing, but that leaves them a long sail from a lot of their normal Op areas.

 

[dapaterson]

Forcing the sailors to spend their winters in Halifax would kill any potential morale boost associated with having a base in Levis. Forcing Halifax sailors to stand duties on ships that aren't their for the entire winter would kill morale in Halifax.

AOPVS might work for Quebec basing, but that leaves them a long sail from a lot of their normal Op areas.

The CCG makes it work somehow.

Maybe the next 2 or 3 CRCN should be drawn from the CCG to get a grip on the RCN.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a Franco CRCN.

Maybe put a MH ACSO Franco in command, if we can't get a CCG CRCN ...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Forcing the sailors to spend their winters in Halifax would kill any potential morale boost associated with having a base in Levis. Forcing Halifax sailors to stand duties on ships that aren't their for the entire winter would kill morale in Halifax.

AOPVS might work for Quebec basing, but that leaves them a long sail from a lot of their normal Op areas.

First of all, either you base all types (except submarines - they have to be co-located) in Levis, or you don't base any: A French station cannot become a place for "secondary" units only so that franco personnel becomes relegated to secondary roles, and thus a "lower" class of sailors.

Second, sailors go on deployments, all the time. I am not advocating four months in Halifax, but three. The river and gulf are OK up to mid December and opens up in the first few weeks of March. And I am not advocating that the ships be taken over by Halifax based personnel while in Halifax. They would retain their crew. So lets say the few ships that are not ice strengthened (the RCD, which should be one or two, depending on long refits schedule) sail mid December for Halifax. They get there and go right into Christmas leave period for three weeks - in two shifts of 50% personnel, retaining whom they need for reasonable harbour watches on the one or two RCD. That brings us basically to two months in before going back home and to exercise with the rest of the fleet. Not exactly a home busting amount of time, especially if there are a few long week-end (Qc-Hal is 12 hours drive - two drivers - easy to do. I've done it when I was in Halifax and my parents lived in Quebec city).

Third, who says hey can't develop an op area in the gulf for training? Thye would be a lot more visible to Merchant ships than where we train around Halifax. There are a lot more such ships in the gulf than around Halifax's training area.

Moreover, what you are saying are exactly the excuses that the RCN has always used to justify not even trying to set up such a base. Fine. If the RCN doesn't want to tap into 25% of the population, that's their choice, but they shouldn't claim to be a "national institution" then.

 

[Furniture]

Second, sailors go on deployments, all the time. I am not advocating four months in Halifax, but three. The river and gulf are OK up to mid December and opens up in the first few weeks of March. And I am not advocating that the ships be taken over by Halifax based personnel while in Halifax. They would retain their crew. So lets say the few ships that are not ice strengthened (the RCD, which should be one or two, depending on long refits schedule) sail mid December for Halifax. They get there and go right into Christmas leave period for three weeks - in two shifts of 50% personnel, retaining whom they need for reasonable harbour watches on the one or two RCD. That brings us basically to two months in before going back home and to exercise with the rest of the fleet. Not exactly a home busting amount of time, especially if there are a few long week-end (Qc-Hal is 12 hours drive - two drivers - easy to do. I've done it when I was in Halifax and my parents lived in Quebec city).

This part of you post makes it clear you are not in touch with the modern RCN or it's current sailors. No sailor is going to take a posting that all but guarantees that they will be away from home for three months during the winters.

First of all, either you base all types (except submarines - they have to be co-located) in Levis, or you don't base any: A French station cannot become a place for "secondary" units only so that franco personnel becomes relegated to secondary roles, and thus a "lower" class of sailors.

Which is why there is no RCN base in Quebec...

Moreover, what you are saying are exactly the excuses that the RCN has always used to justify not even trying to set up such a base. Fine. If the RCN doesn't want to tap into 25% of the population, that's their choice, but they shouldn't claim to be a "national institution" then.

Reasons aren't excuses. It's the same reason Ontario doesn't have a navy base... It makes no sense to base your ships in a location that they cannot operate from year-round.

I think a base in Quebec would be awesome, but it has to actually make sense logistically and operationally.

The CCG makes it work somehow.

Maybe the next 2 or 3 CRCN should be drawn from the CCG to get a grip on the RCN.

The CCG has a completely different crewing model, so short of upending how the RCN/CAF operate, it's not really a feasible model to emulate.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The CCG makes it work somehow.

Maybe the next 2 or 3 CRCN should be drawn from the CCG to get a grip on the RCN.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a Franco CRCN.

Maybe put a MH ACSO Franco in command, if we can't get a CCG CRCN ...

How about Female Franco Naval LogO ?

 

[Underway]

Many Quebecers won't join the navy because they don't want to leave Quebec. This is one of the reasons we have a higher % of female to male French sailors over the english ratio. Because female Quebecers consistently in many polls and data show they are not as resistant in leaving their home province. But the same argument goes for other provinces. I would suspect we would get a lot more people from Ontario joining the RCN if we made a big base here! And one can look at the thin quality of pers running NAVRES HQ as a reason to not base things in Quebec. Almost no anglos will ever take a contract there even though they are 5/6 the total numbers of NAVRES. No job opportunities for their english spouses (would be if they were in Montreal though).

The concern in having a "Quebec Squadron" is the same one that the army wrestles with with the R22 (less so the 12 RBC and Artillery). A completely different army with different professional expectations and different standards shows up. This could lead to three navy's instead of the two we already have.

There are some discussions I have heard on Quebec basing for ships. Due to the now shared DND Coast Guard/Navy in the same house the CCG jetties are being looked at as basing opportunities. And with the increased size and number of ships over the next 20 years planning has to start soon (8 more subs than current, return of the AOR's, AOPS are large, RCD's a much larger than the frigates, potential CDC... etc...).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Many Quebecers won't join the navy because they don't want to leave Quebec. This is one of the reasons we have a higher % of female to male French sailors over the english ratio. Because female Quebecers consistently in many polls and data show they are not as resistant in leaving their home province. But the same argument goes for other provinces. I would suspect we would get a lot more people from Ontario joining the RCN if we made a big base here! And one can look at the thin quality of pers running NAVRES HQ as a reason to not base things in Quebec. Almost no anglos will ever take a contract there even though they are 5/6 the total numbers of NAVRES. No job opportunities for their english spouses (would be if they were in Montreal though).

The concern in having a "Quebec Squadron" is the same one that the army wrestles with with the R22 (less so the 12 RBC and Artillery). A completely different army with different professional expectations and different standards shows up. This could lead to three navy's instead of the two we already have.

There are some discussions I have heard on Quebec basing for ships. Due to the now shared DND Coast Guard/Navy in the same house the CCG jetties are being looked at as basing opportunities. And with the increased size and number of ships over the next 20 years planning has to start soon (8 more subs than current, return of the AOR's, AOPS are large, RCD's a much larger than the frigates, potential CDC... etc...).

The Maritimes has the same problem. Lots of people joined the Nova Scotia Armed Forces.

 

[Underway]

The Maritimes has the same problem. Lots of people joined the Nova Scotia Armed Forces.

BC folks seem to be a higher % of the west coast as well. It makes sense. I suspect if one were to look at the Army, a larger % would be central/western Canadians as the army is present and visible in those communities.

 

[suffolkowner]

The Royal Navy’s frigate gap – how deep and how long will it last? - Navy Lookout

The RN is now in a position where ageing frigates are being decommissioned well before the replacements are available. There is little that can be done in the short term, but here we attempt to analyse if and when the situation might be recovered. Type 23s holding on Following our analysis of...

www.navylookout.com

I post this article and image again with the news that the RN will be decommissioning another frigate this year ahead of schedule after numerous recent refits and possibly another due to personnel shortages. Which would drop them to 5 type 23s. And wonder about our own situation as we are just starting construction of the RCD

HMS Richmond to be decommissioned this year – Royal Navy down to six frigates - Navy Lookout

It was confirmed yesterday at a farewell Parade in her affiliated town of Richmond in Yorkshire, that the frigate is to be retired following 31-years of service. HMS Richmond was the last warship built by the great Swan Hunter shipyard on the Tyne and commissioned in 1995. The penultimate ships...

www.navylookout.com

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Here is what I find fascinating in that graph: The grey bar portion represents the time needed to build the ship , the colour part means in commission.

For the type 26, ignoring the first build, you go from 10 years to build the second ship, down to six years for the eight and last ship. Overall, it took 16 and a half years to build 8 ships.

The type 31's go from 4 1/2 year to build the first of class down to 3 1/2 year to build the fifth, an overall period of eight years to build five vessels. In fact, the Type 31 build starts 4 years after the type 26 start and delivers its fifth ship a year and a half before the fifth type 26 is delivered.

That's the type of "emergency" program Canada needs for the CDC to prevent any gaps in surface fleet capability as the HAL's self-retire.

 

[suffolkowner]

Here is what I find fascinating in that graph: The grey bar portion represents the time needed to build the ship , the colour part means in commission.

For the type 26, ignoring the first build, you go from 10 years to build the second ship, down to six years for the eight and last ship. Overall, it took 16 and a half years to build 8 ships.

The type 31's go from 4 1/2 year to build the first of class down to 3 1/2 year to build the fifth, an overall period of eight years to build five vessels. In fact, the Type 31 build starts 4 years after the type 26 start and delivers its fifth ship a year and a half before the fifth type 26 is delivered.

That's the type of "emergency" program Canada needs for the CDC to prevent any gaps in surface fleet capability as the HAL's self-retire.

From what ive gathered from reading various Navylookout articles
is that the build was deliberately slow to begin with to accommodate budgeting
problems with late delivery of gearing from David Brown at the beginning
constructed outside vs inside
cold yard vs hot like Irving
type 31 less complex than type 26
plan to get construction time down to 66 months
type 23 designed for 18 yr life

I wonder if we can build the CDC at the same time as the RCD. Do we have the yard space and people to do it?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

From what ive gathered from reading various Navylookout articles
is that the build was deliberately slow to begin with to accommodate budgeting
problems with late delivery of gearing from David Brown at the beginning

That's why I ignored the first type 26 in my post.

plan to get construction time down to 66 months

That's for the Type 26. At 42 months each, it is still significantly faster to build Type 31's.

I wonder if we can build the CDC at the same time as the RCD. Do we have the yard space and people to do it?

Yes. If we don't build them at ISI.

 

[suffolkowner]

That's why I ignored the first type 26 in my post.



That's for the Type 26. At 42 months each, it is still significantly faster to build Type 31's.



Yes. If we don't build them at ISI.

the CDC has kinda evolved into a mini Halifax at least for some on the internet. Can Ontario Shipyards do that? In conjunction with Davie? Move the newer systems on the worst of the Halifax's onto these new builds

 

[Czech_pivo]

Here is what I find fascinating in that graph: The grey bar portion represents the time needed to build the ship , the colour part means in commission.

For the type 26, ignoring the first build, you go from 10 years to build the second ship, down to six years for the eight and last ship. Overall, it took 16 and a half years to build 8 ships.

The type 31's go from 4 1/2 year to build the first of class down to 3 1/2 year to build the fifth, an overall period of eight years to build five vessels. In fact, the Type 31 build starts 4 years after the type 26 start and delivers its fifth ship a year and a half before the fifth type 26 is delivered.

That's the type of "emergency" program Canada needs for the CDC to prevent any gaps in surface fleet capability as the HAL's self-retire.

They go from having 13 frigates in 2021 back to 13 frigates in 2033 - a 12yr time period to get back to their 'norm'. If you factor in their 6 Type 45 destroyers (commissioned between 2009-13 and set to be replaced in the late 2030s), it means they had 19 destroyers/frigates in 2021 and they arrive back to 19 destroyers available again in 2033. Right now in 2026 they are at their lowest point of availability, 7 frigates and 6 destroyers.

In 2013 we had 3 destroyers and 12 frigates available - a total of 15 destroyers/frigates. In 2026, 13yrs later we have 12 frigates available. In what year will we go back to having 15 destroyers/frigates available? Anyone?

 

[suffolkowner]

They go from having 13 frigates in 2021 back to 13 frigates in 2033 - a 12yr time period to get back to their 'norm'. If you factor in their 6 Type 45 destroyers (commissioned between 2009-13 and set to be replaced in the late 2030s), it means they had 19 destroyers/frigates in 2021 and they arrive back to 19 destroyers available again in 2033. Right now in 2026 they are at their lowest point of availability, 7 frigates and 6 destroyers.

In 2013 we had 3 destroyers and 12 frigates available - a total of 15 destroyers/frigates. In 2026, 13yrs later we have 12 frigates available. In what year will we go back to having 15 destroyers/frigates available? Anyone?

somewhere between 2045 and 2050 I would think

but the RN numbers are down to 6 frigates as the graph is out of date from the HMS Richmond and likely HMS Iron Duke to follow this year as well which brings them down to 5 and 6 for a total of 11

what will our low point be? If we see the first RCD HMCS Fraser in 2033?

 

[Czech_pivo]

somewhere between 2045 and 2050 I would think

but the RN numbers are down to 6 frigates as the graph is out of date from the HMS Richmond and likely HMS Iron Duke to follow this year as well which brings them down to 5 and 6 for a total of 11

what will our low point be? If we see the first RCD HMCS Fraser in 2033?

I agree.

As of now, with the CDC being a fantasy that we are all dreaming about being reality, for us to go back to the year 2013 we have to wait until the year of 2045 at the earliest - 32yrs just to get back to 'even'. Talk about screwing the pooch in terms of managing our ability to be an independent sovereign country taken seriously by just about everyone.

In that time period, 2013 to 2045, our population will have grown by just under 33% and our GDP from 1.85$ trillion USD in 2013 to an estimate (based in AI), 4.4$ trillion USD in 2045.