New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Rainbow1910]

You have a life, steady schedule, a generally happy workplace.

There’s also this really strange and foreign thing to CAF members, it’s called a union.

 

[quadrapiper]

Well, the "franco" can operate 100% in French, using the proper French terminology, and be based for their whole life in a francophone province or area, for one thing.

When the RCN catches up to that concept, in view of the fact that there is a strong maritime tradition in Quebec in particular, they will get 25 to 30 % greater applications of qualified applicants.

Is there anywhere, money not an object, in Quebec that would work as a third RCN base? Could have some value for NAVRES training accessibility, on top of redundancy/added capacity, and providing a posting of choice for Francophones.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Levis. Co-located with Davie (lots of room). From December to March, you just co-locate with the rest of the Fleet at Halifax for those units not in refit. If you get the CDC as ice capable as Topshee wants them, then you only have to re-locate the one or two "franco" RCD for that period.

 

[suffolkowner]

I suppose it makes good sense as Cape Breton is at the main entry point to the Gulf but I wonder, are you better to start where the ice is i.e. the river itself or steam towards the start of the ice. I am totally not familiar with ice anywhere but in whiskey, skating rinks and Georgian Bay

I think the Sydney base is just for maintenance and that the 2 Polars will be homeported out of St Johns?

 

[Furniture]

Levis. Co-located with Davie (lots of room). From December to March, you just co-locate with the rest of the Fleet at Halifax for those units not in refit. If you get the CDC as ice capable as Topshee wants them, then you only have to re-locate the one or two "franco" RCD for that period.

Forcing the sailors to spend their winters in Halifax would kill any potential morale boost associated with having a base in Levis. Forcing Halifax sailors to stand duties on ships that aren't their for the entire winter would kill morale in Halifax.

AOPVS might work for Quebec basing, but that leaves them a long sail from a lot of their normal Op areas.

 

[dapaterson]

Forcing the sailors to spend their winters in Halifax would kill any potential morale boost associated with having a base in Levis. Forcing Halifax sailors to stand duties on ships that aren't their for the entire winter would kill morale in Halifax.

AOPVS might work for Quebec basing, but that leaves them a long sail from a lot of their normal Op areas.

The CCG makes it work somehow.

Maybe the next 2 or 3 CRCN should be drawn from the CCG to get a grip on the RCN.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a Franco CRCN.

Maybe put a MH ACSO Franco in command, if we can't get a CCG CRCN ...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Forcing the sailors to spend their winters in Halifax would kill any potential morale boost associated with having a base in Levis. Forcing Halifax sailors to stand duties on ships that aren't their for the entire winter would kill morale in Halifax.

AOPVS might work for Quebec basing, but that leaves them a long sail from a lot of their normal Op areas.

First of all, either you base all types (except submarines - they have to be co-located) in Levis, or you don't base any: A French station cannot become a place for "secondary" units only so that franco personnel becomes relegated to secondary roles, and thus a "lower" class of sailors.

Second, sailors go on deployments, all the time. I am not advocating four months in Halifax, but three. The river and gulf are OK up to mid December and opens up in the first few weeks of March. And I am not advocating that the ships be taken over by Halifax based personnel while in Halifax. They would retain their crew. So lets say the few ships that are not ice strengthened (the RCD, which should be one or two, depending on long refits schedule) sail mid December for Halifax. They get there and go right into Christmas leave period for three weeks - in two shifts of 50% personnel, retaining whom they need for reasonable harbour watches on the one or two RCD. That brings us basically to two months in before going back home and to exercise with the rest of the fleet. Not exactly a home busting amount of time, especially if there are a few long week-end (Qc-Hal is 12 hours drive - two drivers - easy to do. I've done it when I was in Halifax and my parents lived in Quebec city).

Third, who says hey can't develop an op area in the gulf for training? Thye would be a lot more visible to Merchant ships than where we train around Halifax. There are a lot more such ships in the gulf than around Halifax's training area.

Moreover, what you are saying are exactly the excuses that the RCN has always used to justify not even trying to set up such a base. Fine. If the RCN doesn't want to tap into 25% of the population, that's their choice, but they shouldn't claim to be a "national institution" then.

 

[Furniture]

Second, sailors go on deployments, all the time. I am not advocating four months in Halifax, but three. The river and gulf are OK up to mid December and opens up in the first few weeks of March. And I am not advocating that the ships be taken over by Halifax based personnel while in Halifax. They would retain their crew. So lets say the few ships that are not ice strengthened (the RCD, which should be one or two, depending on long refits schedule) sail mid December for Halifax. They get there and go right into Christmas leave period for three weeks - in two shifts of 50% personnel, retaining whom they need for reasonable harbour watches on the one or two RCD. That brings us basically to two months in before going back home and to exercise with the rest of the fleet. Not exactly a home busting amount of time, especially if there are a few long week-end (Qc-Hal is 12 hours drive - two drivers - easy to do. I've done it when I was in Halifax and my parents lived in Quebec city).

This part of you post makes it clear you are not in touch with the modern RCN or it's current sailors. No sailor is going to take a posting that all but guarantees that they will be away from home for three months during the winters.

First of all, either you base all types (except submarines - they have to be co-located) in Levis, or you don't base any: A French station cannot become a place for "secondary" units only so that franco personnel becomes relegated to secondary roles, and thus a "lower" class of sailors.

Which is why there is no RCN base in Quebec...

Moreover, what you are saying are exactly the excuses that the RCN has always used to justify not even trying to set up such a base. Fine. If the RCN doesn't want to tap into 25% of the population, that's their choice, but they shouldn't claim to be a "national institution" then.

Reasons aren't excuses. It's the same reason Ontario doesn't have a navy base... It makes no sense to base your ships in a location that they cannot operate from year-round.

I think a base in Quebec would be awesome, but it has to actually make sense logistically and operationally.

The CCG makes it work somehow.

Maybe the next 2 or 3 CRCN should be drawn from the CCG to get a grip on the RCN.

The CCG has a completely different crewing model, so short of upending how the RCN/CAF operate, it's not really a feasible model to emulate.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The CCG makes it work somehow.

Maybe the next 2 or 3 CRCN should be drawn from the CCG to get a grip on the RCN.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a Franco CRCN.

Maybe put a MH ACSO Franco in command, if we can't get a CCG CRCN ...

How about Female Franco Naval LogO ?

 

[Underway]

Many Quebecers won't join the navy because they don't want to leave Quebec. This is one of the reasons we have a higher % of female to male French sailors over the english ratio. Because female Quebecers consistently in many polls and data show they are not as resistant in leaving their home province. But the same argument goes for other provinces. I would suspect we would get a lot more people from Ontario joining the RCN if we made a big base here! And one can look at the thin quality of pers running NAVRES HQ as a reason to not base things in Quebec. Almost no anglos will ever take a contract there even though they are 5/6 the total numbers of NAVRES. No job opportunities for their english spouses (would be if they were in Montreal though).

The concern in having a "Quebec Squadron" is the same one that the army wrestles with with the R22 (less so the 12 RBC and Artillery). A completely different army with different professional expectations and different standards shows up. This could lead to three navy's instead of the two we already have.

There are some discussions I have heard on Quebec basing for ships. Due to the now shared DND Coast Guard/Navy in the same house the CCG jetties are being looked at as basing opportunities. And with the increased size and number of ships over the next 20 years planning has to start soon (8 more subs than current, return of the AOR's, AOPS are large, RCD's a much larger than the frigates, potential CDC... etc...).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Many Quebecers won't join the navy because they don't want to leave Quebec. This is one of the reasons we have a higher % of female to male French sailors over the english ratio. Because female Quebecers consistently in many polls and data show they are not as resistant in leaving their home province. But the same argument goes for other provinces. I would suspect we would get a lot more people from Ontario joining the RCN if we made a big base here! And one can look at the thin quality of pers running NAVRES HQ as a reason to not base things in Quebec. Almost no anglos will ever take a contract there even though they are 5/6 the total numbers of NAVRES. No job opportunities for their english spouses (would be if they were in Montreal though).

The concern in having a "Quebec Squadron" is the same one that the army wrestles with with the R22 (less so the 12 RBC and Artillery). A completely different army with different professional expectations and different standards shows up. This could lead to three navy's instead of the two we already have.

There are some discussions I have heard on Quebec basing for ships. Due to the now shared DND Coast Guard/Navy in the same house the CCG jetties are being looked at as basing opportunities. And with the increased size and number of ships over the next 20 years planning has to start soon (8 more subs than current, return of the AOR's, AOPS are large, RCD's a much larger than the frigates, potential CDC... etc...).

The Maritimes has the same problem. Lots of people joined the Nova Scotia Armed Forces.