New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[ZipperHead]

I must confess that after leaving the Infantry 10 years ago I put on half a ton of weight.  Now that I've failed an Expres test PT is no longer a luxury I have to sqeeze time in for, but a command performance parade.  In three months I've taken half the weight off.  I like it.  "If you're not deployable you're not employable".

Another good line, that I wish was taken a lot more seriously.

Al

 

[orange.paint]

I'm actually just getting back of course whats going on with the Cabot trail team?Haven't heard too much about it in a while.Went to the original meeting and been thrown off to the three wind's ever since. Did they pick the legs yet? training schedule?team?

I think that I might actually throw in that memo,now that I'm qualified to write them ;D

Been running everyday dropped 60 pounds.(of course everyone at hq thinks I have aids etc).
I originally went over to keep pat company on the run but hes gone to south Africa now so I dont know if hes running.

Yah I'm the newfie that was easier to walk over than around....that should narrow it down.I'm running the 5km in 22 minutes now but I still got to work on distance,if I had my leg I'd be set.But of course had no time to look up any info between the per/pdr memo writing marching around stuff.(In retrospect I did get some good hill runs in in N.S after supper's)

 

[Armymedic]

Heres my idea for morning P.T.
1 1/2 hr every morning (not including stretching and parade)

Schedule that time every day, but in reality a good hard 40 min session of running, circuit tng or swimming is equally effective. It is in the quality, not always the quantity (time).
Also include stretching, with a proper warm up and cool down time...its something we rush thru inappropriately, and ultimately causes injuries.

 

[ZipperHead]

Schedule that time every day, but in reality a good hard 40 min session of running, circuit tng or swimming is equally effective. It is in the quality, not always the quantity (time).
Also include stretching, with a proper warm up and cool down time...its something we rush thru inappropriately, and ultimately causes injuries.

Coming from somebody who sees the results of: 1) too much, too soon and 2) much pain, little gain, I think that this is good advice to heed.

One thing that I have learned over my years of pain and anguish is that it is better to train smart than to train  hard, at least until your body is ready for it, then make the most effective use of your training time (quality vs quantity). One thing that AM pointed out, which I am guilty of, and I see all the time, is the lack of a properly conducted cool-down, which, IMO, is more counter productive than not conducting a proper warm-up (you can always ease into a work out, but too many people abruptly end their work out, and then wonder why they are stiff and sore the next day).

Oddly enough, Ash, I was reminded of your "experience" back in the day when you made the error of being so bold as to "suggest" that the Sqn be broken up into different running/fitness groups, as there were different levels of fitness amongst the Sqn members. As I recall, some people (who will remain nameless, natch  : ) took offense to this. I guess that you were just ahead of your time.

 

[orange.paint]

We all seem to idolise other armies but i found this out today.USMC MINIMUM standards:

3 pull-ups

50 crunches

28 minute 3 mile.

I do however like that they have a test like this implemented, I find the 13km rucksack a mindless 1 1/2 2 hr walk that doesn't really prove much. I don't know many people who cannot finish the 13km but I bet there are plenty who couldn't complete a run,pull-ups etc.

Powers should be given to unit CO's RSM's to develop unit requirements to augment the 13km in my mind.For example armd crewman must be able to do score 60 on the coopers test or can be removed from the unit.

Lets face it 13km is 13km. I've walked farther in wal-mart in tow of a pregnant wife.And yes I've carried more crap out of wal-mart than you could fit in a rucksack.

 

[Haggis]

Powers should be given to unit CO's RSM's to develop unit requirements to augment the 13km in my mind.  For example armd crewman must be able to do score 60 on the coopers test or can be removed from the unit.

Enforcing the existing standard is far cheaper in dollars, time and resources. We already have a standard and, unlike your suggestion, everyone in every unit knows what it is.  Why invent a new one?

 

[rifleman]

And if everyone could invent there own, it wouldn't be a standard

 

[orange.paint]

I have to disagree. (notice there was no verbal warning this time!)

I understand that yes someone needs to make a policy etc and that would cost money.What I'm trying to say is that If the power that be said OK CO of the north west pony regiment, give me a fitness test that will challenge your troops and give them a bench mark to strive for.Sort of like the USMC 1st ,2nd ,and 3rd class rating.

I wont ramble on about the 13km again. If you cant complete it or are too sore to do anything the rest of the day.......look in the mirror. It's a lax standard.

Or In the Canadian army fitness manual remove the little quote at the bottom of the page that says it isn't a standard and the only standard is the 13km.And there you go Haggis one standard that everyone can work with.Also isn't the coopers test already approved?

And is it really a WASTE of money to promote fitness?Challenge soldiers? (heaven forbid)

Also if your worried if everyone will understand and know the standard we can use that e-mail thing,works great.

dollars
you pay PSP on salary if you want them to test.
soldiers get paid everyday.
People in NDHQ get paid everyday....

Time
if your on this website you can make time.....
coopers test can be done In about 1 hr or less
cf fitness test over two days during PT period.

resources
legs, running shoes, heartbeat. 1x pull-up bar (If you can't find one on base....)
1x bench and weight set. (three weight rooms here I know on base)

Haggis I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, maybe my feeble mind cannot grasp the bureaucracy of physical training.Something needs to be done to weed people out.In my mind any airship in cadpat can do the darn 19 push-ups and 6 on a beep test. Personally I would rather have 10 guys who can actually pass a coopers test beside me than 100 guys in cadpat moo-moo's  who completed the 6 on the beep test.

Fit to fight? .....But not after beep six right?

I will now go rest my sore aching body to prepare for tomorrows activities,thinking of what it must feel like to achieve minimum standards,and not want to change our discusting system.

Like my wife's family told me "to be British is not to be angry at the world, its to be disgusted"

Anyone happy with that system disgusts me.

we are Canada's bodyguard.....what kind of body guard would you want if your life depended on it?

 

[Haggis]

I understand that yes someone needs to make a policy etc and that would cost money.What I'm trying to say is that If the power that be said OK CO of the north west pony regiment, give me a fitness test that will challenge your troops and give them a bench mark to strive for.Sort of like the USMC 1st ,2nd ,and 3rd class rating.

... and if an "airship" fails the 'local test', no formal career action can be taken (bad PER/PDR, RW or C&P).  If so, it is completely redressable.  Stick to what you can enforce.... the existing standard.

Also isn't the coopers test already approved?

Only for applicants to JTF2.

Also if your worried if everyone will understand and know the standard we can use that e-mail thing,works great.

Everyone already understands.  What they need to understand (and see from the C of C) is that it WILL be enforced.

dollars
you pay PSP on salary if you want them to test.
soldiers get paid everyday.
People in NDHQ get paid everyday....

What's your point?  PSP is underworked and needs to invent another standard for them to apply in addtion to the ones they already have???  Good use of scarce resources, isn't it?

Time
if your on this website you can make time.....

I was at the gym before the sun came up today (and every other weekday for that matter).  I've still got time for a Timmys (and Army.ca  ).

resources
legs, running shoes, heartbeat. 1x pull-up bar (If you can't find one on base....)
1x bench and weight set. (three weight rooms here I know on base)

I was thinking more of the dollars, time and resources it takes to design, validate, implement, communicate, train on and test a new standard and measure the results.  Ask your PSP folks about the amount of effort required to do this.  Just for fun.

Haggis I'm not trying to be sarcastic here

Could've fooled me. ;D

Something needs to be done to weed people out.

Something IS being done.  That's the title of this thread.

I will now go rest my sore aching body to prepare for tomorrows activities,thinking of what it must feel like to achieve minimum standards,and not want to change our discusting system.

Before the system is changed, we have to know what's wrong with it.  Maybe this CDS initiative will show that the CF can tolerate (and is ready for) a higher fitness standard.  Maybe not.  But we have to start somewhere, right?

Anyone happy with that system disgusts me.

Then I guess I don't disgust you since I never said I was happy with it.  I did say we have to apply it and measure the results.  Then we can move on.

Remember, not everyone needs to be fit enough for DHTC.

 

[TCBF]

" than 100 guys in cadpat moo-moo's  who completed the 6 on the beep test."

- CADPAT moo-moos:  I love it!

 

[Haggis]

" than 100 guys in cadpat moo-moo's  who completed the 6 on the beep test."

- CADPAT moo-moos:  I love it!

Come to Ottawa, Tom.  I'll point out a few.

 

[GO!!!]

Remember, not everyone needs to be fit enough for DHTC.

This is the problem, IMHO.

While everyone may not need to be in good enough shape to be at the hill, it would be a good thing to shoot for. I can't even count how many times I've heard a statement to that effect, used as an excuse to go to timmys instead of the gym, or why they fell out of a ruck march.

This is a defeatist attitude, and is miles away from the "warrior ethos" I am told exists.

While everyone may not need to be in good enough shape for the hill, they should want to be.

 

[Haggis]

While everyone may not need to be in good enough shape for the hill, they should want to be.

To this, I agree.  What undermines this is those who have the expectation that this should be THE standard.

I've worked through the JTF2 training package just for fun.  Damn if it doesn't get you pretty fit, but it's awfully time consuming.  It's not easy to work it around a wife, three kids and a non-standard work week.  Once I get a "green light" on my knee (hopefully next month), I intend to do it again.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

This is the problem, IMHO.

While everyone may not need to be in good enough shape to be at the hill, it would be a good thing to shoot for. I can't even count how many times I've heard a statement to that effect, used as an excuse to go to timmys instead of the gym, or why they fell out of a ruck march.

This is a defeatist attitude, and is miles away from the "warrior ethos" I am told exists.

While everyone may not need to be in good enough shape for the hill, they should want to be.

If it isnt broken, dont fix it. In this case, we have a defficiency, and an excellent model to template from would be the USMC (I know I know, not the Marine argument again), but their 'everyone is a rifleman first, tradesman second' attitude speaks for itself.

At least thats what you seem to be dancing around, in this case.

 

[buzgo]

How much did the Army and PSP spend on developing the Army Fitness program? How many units are actually using it? Lets use what we've got before we come up with something new.

 

[orange.paint]

Better yet implement the army fitness manual test. I know here many MANY people could not achieve level 3 on all testing.

I agree with go!!! we need to strive for things like cat A jtf2 fitness, saying this I am not ready for that yet myself but I train everyday to get to that level. People get too comfortable with the 13km and the beep testing and realise hey I make 50 000 a year.Why should I do more than my REQUIREMENTS....thats why we gotta raise the requirements.

 

[MdB]

Why should I do more than my REQUIREMENTS....thats why we gotta raise the requirements.

Because, as I see it, military personnel (at least in the combats arms), are athletes specialized in armed operation. What athletes do? Strive for the best results. Requirements are kind of perverse in a way, it tells you that upon reaching some point, you're ok. More importantly is attitude in that and that's derived from culture. What is Gen. Hillier doing? Instilling a new culture regarding fitness policies by among others putting in effect standards and consequences to not meeting them. But ultimately what he's doing is a positive reinforcement to reach a healthy (haha) fitness culture (which implies more than standards, excellence).

 

[Haggis]

Consdiser the standard to be a line in the sand, not a goal.

Fall below that line and your future is in peril. 

 

[orange.paint]

Sorry if my post wasn't clear guys thats sarcasm BIG TIME.
;D
it was referring to the moo-moo guys i was talking about earlier.The line is in the sand but it's one fat beach out there.

This is a new year coming up in the next few weeks.Maybe I will see some action actually taken upon people who do not finish their 13km. Oh yeah they get to do the beep test if they fail.And No soldier I know has ever failed the beep test.

You guys said about the combat arms being a athlete of combat.I wish.The whole reason I posted on this thread was to basically state that the current testing in my opinion is weak.Enforcement in my mind has been weak. (I know guys who failed last BFT still getting paid).

On the culture aspect,where is it? I had morning P.T cancelled twice this week (and before someone jumps on in and says do it on your own I ran 20km last night so dint start) for very lame reasons.Work that could have been easily done from 10h00 to 12h00 AFTER P.T.
Believe me I had a hard-on when I heard Gen hillier was going to enforce standards on P.T but it's going to take 10-15 yrs to weed out the people who have already reached higher rank levels who can be held at current rank but I haven't seen anyone demoted yet.

Culture again.I find it embarrassing when your working with other countries like Bulgaria for example and they all are in excellent shape and your working with cpl fatass who gets out of breath putting on his boots.

Our culture can be quickly fixed.Raise standards.Body fat analysis. gestapo...etc.
And yes I realise there are large individuals who can out ruck, out run fit looking guys, but imagine how good these troops could be if they lost the extra stomach.

AS I SAID BEFORE: If you were important and needed a body guard,you life was threatened who would you want as a body guard? we are Canada's guard.

Heres a question: What was the BMI removed for? why do the U.S.a still use it? I know it was flawed with larger builds etc but couldn't you get body fat tested if you failed the BMI?I wasn't in the army at this time so I would appreciate any info.

 

[ZipperHead]

I like hearing people like rcac_011 say "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!" (plus I know him, and from what I have seen it takes a lot to get him mad). His anger is borne out of frustration, of a system that says it is going to change, but we all know deep down that it won't really change that much. Why the cynical outlook?? Look around. Too many people on IPS, or Permanent Category (which seems to be the most honest description I have ever heard in the military), who, unless there is an emergency session of parliament to be rid of their sorry carcasses because of a new change in the fitness policy, will cry fowl, get a redress/consult the Ombudsman/go to the media.

I would love to see some tough love be issued out (especially at the leadership levels) as a warning across the bow's of the cruise ship mentality we have, but I won't be holding my breath. To allow even one person to breach the new policy guidelines (because, well, darn it, they are just too valuable to lose!!!) will show the weakness that is in place already (i.e no real enforcement of existing policies, so what's to say that there will be an enforcement of a new policy).

It takes time to go from zero to hero (it's taken me two years of steady work to be at a state that I can live with, and I would like to think I was never at rock bottom in the first place), but too many people act like it's a big surprise that they are supposed to be in shape in the first place. If finger pointing and laying the blame on someone else were an Olympic event, we would be owning the podium in that event.

I personally feel that everyone should be striving for the JTF standard, but not neccesarily having to being in that shape. Setting the bar as low as it is, is as rcac_011 said, disgusting. It gives people nothing to aim for. It's a lot like those milk commercials, where the girl says she dreams of the crowd chanting "You're number 2!! You're number 2!!!!". As mentioned, level 3 on the new fitness manual "gut check" chart is a very reasonable goal to strive for, without having to become a marathon runner, a gym monkey, or a gymnast (although it is hard for me to propel my sorry carcass the distance required on the standing long jump for level 3 .... note to self: eat less poutine).

The cultural change, unfortunately, is going to take a lot longer than any sane person will have the patience for, unless of course, there are tangible repercussions for not heeding the warnings given. I know I won't be shedding any tears if there is a line up at the release section after the first adminstrative shockwaves are felt if/when the policy is enforced. For a person to say they never saw it coming is laughable, at best.

Al