New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[Bert]

I've known about this for six months.  Like Al and Wog said, this is a pretty good and intensive program.  Its scalable
and can be adapted to your basement and outside activities to unit PT.  Running and weights generally
exercise typical muscle groups.  A crossfit  or the like program stimulates the muscles one doesn't use much.
A complete body development program that supplements the treadmill/track.  You notice major endurance improvements.
Some of the exercises are akward and would be a riot in unit PT.

 

[buzgo]

Doesn't the CLS provide direction on the use of the AFM programme? Aren't people supposed to be using it?

When I left Petawawa last year, the units were just getting issued free weights  and stuff so that they could do the exercises - hasn't it happened?

 

[ZipperHead]

Doesn't the CLS provide direction on the use of the AFM programme? Aren't people supposed to be using it?

When I left Petawawa last year, the units were just getting issued free weights  and stuff so that they could do the exercises - hasn't it happened?

As somebody has as their signature: "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single footstep (and a lot of bitching)....".

It will take a while for this type of thing to get into full swing. And regardless of this, just because units have the eqpt, doesn't mean that they will utilize them (or utilize them to the max). Again, everybody will be lined up at 0800hrs to use them, and then the weight room will be deserted the other 7 hours of the workday. I think it will be a lot like a New Year's resolution: lot's of activity in the beginning, then people will lose interest and it will slow down again.

As I said before (and will continue to, ad nauseum): The fit will get fitter, and the fat will get fatter.

 

[Synthos]

I recently joined the army reserves, and I've since realized that the standards for physical fitness for the military are much lower than I expected.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again: each soldier is a reflection of the army, and if people aren't in shaped others will assume the army is a physical breeze.

I think it's a good idea to deny promotion based on physical fitness. What good is a CO/NCO that can't keep up with his command? As well, leaders set the example for their troops. The have to be stronger,faster,and more competent to be a truly effective leader.

Regular, mandatory phyiscal exercise for EVERYONE in the reserves has to happen. Twice a month maybe. As well, if anyone can't keep up with the rest of the unit/section (barring physical problems) they should be put through administrative action to force another fitness test.  3 weeks later when they do the test if they don't pass it they *have* to be released. This should be applicable to everyone, from clerks to COs.

As a side note, I think if they issued one or two PT t-shirts with army/navy/air logos to each soldier. They would be authorized for public wear as long as you're doing PT (that doesn't include fixing your roof). I think that would encourage them to do PT on their own time (this is more or less for reservists). In addition to that, the general public would see this person running, or at the gym and see the tough, proud people in our CF. Maybe the t-shirts could be rewards or something you have to earn.

As well, once everyone is truly at the same set of standards we can then begin to raise them, and make an even tougher CF.

 

[Donut]

Synthos,

in case you haven't been reading this thread, it's taking a heck of a lot more then new t-shirts to get an enforceable fitness standard for both the regs and reserves.

You've had some good points on here, but they're really not backed up by any kind of experience, and I'd suggest you're not qualified to comment on the essentials of leadership, much less what should constitute grounds under which the CF *has* to release someone.

Welcome to the CF, but maybe you should spend some time soaking up the knowledge on these boards, and not throwing out opinion based on a couple of months of service.

DF

 

[Synthos]

I'm not saying it should be just t-shirts that makes enforceable fitness. They'd be for encouragement and publicity, I don't think I said anything else about it.

I never claimed I have a lot of experience but would you have said what you did if I didn't say I just recently joined. You're right about me not knowing about releasing. However, I think you're wrong in assuming I don't know what makes a good leader. I think it's obvious that a leader who isn't a role model for his subordinates is probably not going to produce troops that aspire to be at that greater level. And if you can't perform to the same level as your troops, then it's hypocritical for you force them to a set of standards that you can't acheive yourself. Please don't assume I don't have experience with leadership just because I didn't get it from the army.

 

[pbi]

I think the proof of the success of this will be in the proverbial pudding.

b]I'll believe in this system when I see a Col. removed for failing to get into shape, until then, it's just talk, and talk is cheap.[/b]

And herein lies the problem: leadership by example, both amongst senior officers and WOs. While a few RWs might be required (threat of  release would hopefully not be needed to motivate somebody at that rank level, but...), I think the overall effect on the morale of the CF would be great. But, again, we need to get rid of the mentality that lets people let their personal fitness go down the drain: IMHO it's part of the whole "job-ism" thing that still permeates far too many folks. A true professional keeps themselves as fit as their age and medical condition permit, and doesn't winge about it. It has to be a lifestyle thing.

Cheers

 

[c_canuk]

also keep in mind that it's hard enough to keep people in the PRes longer than 4 years to begin with.


I don't know about other places, but my unit has a lot of former Reg forces who've done their time playing rough and are a little slower than I am yet that is insignifigant compared to the amount of experiance, knowledge and the willingness to regularly take part in trg that they bring to the table.

In that light who cares if they can't get one more push up, or run that mile a few seconds faster, they've been doing it before many of us FNGs were born, and without them there would be a steep difference in the troop that we could turn out in the PRes.

It's also pretty unrealistic to expect someone who's been at this job for 30 years to be able to keep up with 17 yearolds.

 

[Synthos]

That's a good point, but if I'm not mistaken the standards are different for the older members. However, greasing the component transfer process and keeping experienced members in should be a high priority too.

 

[buzgo]

That is a good point, there tends to be a feeling that we should all be 'olympians.' Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen and people need to acknowledge that. People slow down, people get hurt and people get burnt out.

I think that one of the reasons that the US military is perceived as being so fit, and is able to get so many people to be fit, is that they are all YOUNG! How many 45 year old Sergeants do they have? The Brits and Germans have 'age cut-offs' IIRC. If you don't reach a certain rank by a certain age, you won't progress...

 

[ZipperHead]

That is a good point, there tends to be a feeling that we should all be 'olympians.' Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen and people need to acknowledge that. People slow down, people get hurt and people get burnt out.

I think that one of the reasons that the US military is perceived as being so fit, and is able to get so many people to be fit, is that they are all YOUNG! How many 45 year old Sergeants do they have? The Brits and Germans have 'age cut-offs' IIRC. If you don't reach a certain rank by a certain age, you won't progress...

Give that man a prize!!!!! You win the award for Astute Observation of the Day!!! War-fighting is a young man's game. The problem, of course, is that in Canada, our government and their social scientist minions think that we (the military) are but another Department where all the Charter of Rights and Freedoms can be applied the same as they can for Canada Post, CCRA, etc. And it doesn't help that people have come to look at the military as "just a job" as PBI pointed out. People are in denial that they will ever have to fire a shot in anger, conduct a fighting patrol, beat back the hordes from the gate, etc. Giving the "Technician", "Specialist", "Operator" title to every trade doesn't help, as it makes people feel like civvies, who inconveniently have to wear a funny uniform, listen to people with lower education levels, and god forbid, try to fit into the aforementioned uniform: "Hmmmm, CADPAT is getting snug!! Musta shrunk in the wash. Option A: Go to gym, work out, lose weight. Too hard!! Option B: Go to QM, get XXXXL CADPAT. Too easy!!! Option B it is (plus I can stop and get a half dozen fat pills on the way back to work. Then blame society for my woes..... Bonus!!!!!"

Agism (as an excuse) doesn't really cut it, either. Yes, it gets harder to maintain fitness, but with age (usually) comes wisdom and discipline. I remember watching the over-35 crowd get to do their own PT (Tai-chi, slllooooowwwww runs, etc) when I first joined, and thought: "SWEEEEEEETTTTT!!!! I can't wait for that!!!!!". Well, that dream faded away. And now it seems that the one of the fitter groups of soldiers (where I work anyway) is the over 35 crowd. A change in society (Generation X-Box causing young people to be more sedentary; older people realizing that we won't live forever and that our career has to end someday; healthier choices (less drinking, more healthy eating) for the old fogies) has caused this disparity to some degree, but I think blaming the "system" (which I am guilty of, lord knows) isn't the answer, as it comes down to individual responsibility.

I don't think that we should all be Olympians, but considering we are paid a dump-truck load of money (not P Diddy or Alex Rodiguez level, but better than McJob wage-slaves), given considerable benefits, and have taken on a "calling", we should at least strive to be at a level of fitness where we can be comparable to minor-league athletes (not darts or curling......). We shouldn't have to be witness to the lumps of goo in CADPAT, airforce blue, or Navy workdress, waddling around like the mouth breathers that they are. As a taxpayer it disgusts me to know that some of these "things" are better paid than I am, and are going to be a significant drain on our health care dollars once they retire (if they live that long). Watch "Super Size Me", and the comments buddy makes about how you can hector a smoker nowadays about the evils of smoking, but can't say "Boo!!" to a super-sized fatty because it will hurt their feelings. Too true.......

Anyway, now that I've gotten my dander up, I shall go kill some evil bad-guys in my murder-simulator (Battlefield2).

Al

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

(I’m responding to a few posts on this thread here,  I apologise for the disorder)

With all due respect to the idea that has been posed on this thread that all soldiers should be held to one person’s ideal of physical fitness in order to serve; I find this idea to be silly and wasteful. 

I have to agree that for the General Public our Armed Forces are a source of pride;  I do however feel that this sense of pride comes out of respect for people who are willing to stand between harm and the public and hold the line.  I don’t feel they are proud in the Armed forces because they all look super hot and could all be pin ups for calendars. 

First of all I have to agree, it would be nice if every Canadian soldier was perfectly fit, healthy and possessed a supernatural ability to never age, get injured or have one of the million things that are apart of normal wear and tear.  But lets be honest, unless we suddenly discover some wondrous new technology… ahh even then it wouldn’t be cost effective.

Let us look at what our armed forces are for.  Keeping us safe and exercising out national will.  (Am I grossly misinformed? – topical pun intended)

Now, if we look at the point of the issue.  Being able to do the job.  I’m reading there is a need for “upgrading” before being put on active duty.  Obviously we as a nation need a certain level of operational readiness to stay a sovereign nation which hast to be maintained.  (Which, unless last time I went to Kingston those were all Americans, obviously exists)

On the topic of how the military leaders should set the example,  I am forced to agree.  It would be nice if Generals could slap on a rock sack and haul it with the regular troops. (Read the above comment on alien anti ageing technology) But I am going to point out that if I’m in an army an a General is forced onto the front lines, chances are we’re loosing… likely because she was doing push-ups when she should have been reading up on military tactics.  Honestly, I don’t care if a General has a body like Jabba-the-hut,  if she is brilliant at her job, a tactical genius I say let her do what she’s good at.  Similarly for other officers,  if they can do the job,  I’ll live without a pin-up. (living being the important part)

When the chips are down and lives are on the line.  I’d rather the people who are making decisions are there because they have experience, talent and skill.  In fact, if my life was on the line, I’d rather have someone with 15 years experience who has a beer belly watching my back than a 17 year old who can do more push-ups and run farther. 

My point is this; experience is a very valuable thing.  Ageing comes part and parcel with experience – as does less than perfect physical conditioning.  The idea that people should be pushed out because they don’t inspire awe at their physical condition is wasteful. 

 

[COBRA-6]

You're wrong Zell_Dietrich.

No one is talking about a swimsuit competition, but being fit enough to do the job. Having experience is of little use if you can't go on the attack because you're puking your guts out 10m after crossing the line of departure...

 

[ZipperHead]

Zell, I'm going to go out on a limb here (because you filled in next to no information in your profile, I will have to make a few assumptions): you aren't in particularly good shape. You aren't in the military. You have never been forced to work until the point of exhaustion (and not the: "I'm a little bit fatigued. Better sit down for a second". I mean: "Holy Sh!t!!! I can barely stand up. My legs are rubbery. I'm seeing triple. My mouth is drier than a desert rats sack. If I close my eyes, I'll fall asleep....standing up.... with all my gear on....").

I think that the point of all our talk about fitness is about one thing: fighting a war as an infantry soldier. No more. No less. EVERY single soldier in the military defaults to an infantry soldier when we don't need a truck driver, a paper filed, a weapon fixed, a radio fixed. Every one. CDS on down. Take a long look at General Hillier. He isn't young. He is Armour Corps, fer crissakes!!!! My neighbour in Edmonton was the camp Sergeant Major of Banja Luka when Gen Hillier was the MND SW Commander in Bosnia (Multi-National Division - South West) in 2000-2001. He told me a story about when Gen Hillier would go for a run. His JTF bodyguards weren't able to keep up to him. He told them: "Get in shape, or go back to the Hill!!! (JTF HQ)". It isn't a coincidence that he is the CDS. He is smart. He is charismatic. He is a soldier. If he can do it, everyone should be able to. Should we put in a fat CDS just so lazy soldiers can have a (pathetic) example. Fuck no!!!!

If people don't want to join the military (or stay in) because it is too hard to maintain the fitness level expected to do battle, don't join, or get the fuck out. We don't WANT or NEED them. There. I said it. Come back with how smart out of shape people are. I'm pretty smart. Come back with it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be super-duper fit. I'm not saying you have to be super-duper fit. Just be fit. To fight. Not type. Or cook. Or turn a wrench. Being fit makes it easier to do those things. Plus you will have confidence. And energy. And pride.

Al

 

[George Wallace]

Slight Highjack.....This just in from another source:

'Semper Fit' on Home Front Only

Marines serving in Iraq are exempted from the Corps' weight-loss plan. Once back in U.S., extra fitness training, lectures, weigh-ins are the drill.

By Tony Perry  |  Los Angeles Times Staff Writer



SAN DIEGO — The Marine Corps has decided that fighting one war at a time is enough.

A recent order from headquarters at Quantico, Va., says overweight Marines sent to Iraq can be exempt from the Corps' rigid weight-loss program, which requires frequent weigh-ins, extra physical training and "Semper Fit" lectures about nutrition.

The rigors of being deployed in Iraq have made it difficult for Marines to comply with the fitness plan, known as the Body Composition Program, Marine Corps officials said.

Under an order issued before Christmas, commanders are allowed to exempt their troops in Iraq from what is usually a six-month program.

"In combat, the priority is combat and getting home safely and completing the mission," said Lt. Col. Kristi VanGorder, head of the training section at the Training and Education Command at the base in Quantico.

Once a Marine leaves Iraq, he or she is required to resume the fight against fat. Failure to meet the Corps' standards for body fat percentage can lead to an administrative discharge.

Every Marine undergoes an official weigh-in at least twice a year. If an individual is heavier than a set standard for his height, then body fat is calculated. For men, the calculation involves measuring the abdomen and neck; for women, the waist, hips and neck are measured.

The maximum body fat for men is 18%; for women, it is 26% — although the standard is looser if the Marine excels on an annual fitness test. If his or her body fat is below a prescribed maximum, the Marine is considered to meet the standards regardless of weight and height.

"We don't want a bunch of skinny Marines," said VanGorder. "What we want is healthy Marines."

Although while in Iraq the Marine will be exempt from the weigh-ins and other aspects of the program, the individual will not be eligible for promotion until returning to the U.S. and meeting the body-fat standards. The only exception is a Marine who performs heroically in combat and receives a meritorious promotion.

Although the Marine Corps might enforce its standards more vigorously, each of the military services has a program to keep its personnel in fighting trim. The Corps has a maximum weight for a person's height, regardless of age.

The Army makes allowances for weight by age, and allows a higher percentage of body-fat for all age groups.

Sgt. Zachary Balentine, a martial-arts instructor and weight-control instructor at the Quantico base, says that 35 of the 700 Marines in his battalion are in the Body Composition Program. With younger Marines in particular, much of the program involves warning them to stay away from fast food.

"It's so easy to order a pizza or a cheeseburger," Balentine said. "You can't eat like a slob and then expect to perform well."

 

[Armymedic]

You're wrong Zell_Dietrich.

No one is talking about a swimsuit competition, but being fit enough to do the job. Having experience is of little use if you can't go on the attack because you're puking your guts out 10m after crossing the line of departure...

I concur. Its not about having everyone perfectly fit, its about everyone in the CF being as fit as they can be. Just achieving the minimum standard should not be good enough, CF members should always strive to do better. Passing current standards do not take herculean effort, or a huge amount of time. Most personnel in the army can do it easily withing the pt regimen as perscribed by their units. There is never a shortage of opportunities to participate in unit or PSP directed activities. People should never fail a BFT, never fail a Express test as those standards are today. For if they do, they should feel shame if they are allowed to wear the uniform of our country, the uniform which carries the flag that represents you.

As for personal fitness standards...how this one:
I am having difficulty doing my 40 p/u, 40 s/u. I am struggling to complete the 9th chinup, and I am having trouble maintaining a 50 min 10 km pace on the treadmill.
As outlined by CF's fitness guideline for my age and sex, I would easily achieve exempt on an Express test...why do I feel I am not fit enough?

Perhaps because my 18 yrs of experience tells me so.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

I suppose you could put your "in shape" guys in charlie team and always have them assault the trench................ that way everyone else could finish digesting their beans and weiners.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Mike:

You’re 100% right.  I was too zealous in pointing out that experience is critical for an army to be effective. There has to be the ability to execute that experience.  I did get a general sense from previous posts that there was a prevailing attitude that appearances were more important than experience.  I wanted to make a point that the primary focus should be on the ability to perform,  I feel experience is key. 

Alan:

You’re right in that I’m not in the military, yet.  I will however disagree with your assumption that I am in poor physical condition – 160lbs, 6 feet tall, (I’ll not go on in case a future boot camp drill instructor is reading this – bragging apparently brings a world of hurt) Also I’ll disagree with your assumption that I’ve never worked to the point of true exhaustion.  I’ve worked so hard that I’ve literally puked… and then went straight back to work.  (Yes I worked on a farm, no I’m not lazy, yes it was heat stroke and yes I passed out later that day (scar on my forehead to prove it), and yes I worked the next day)

I was to defensive for physically unfit, I don’t like the idea if valuable training and skill going out the front door because we’re becoming a culture obsessed with youth and the washboard abs.  What if there was a brilliant tactical officer who lost a foot?  What if he was brilliant at anticipating the enemy’s tactics and excellent at coming up with effective counter strategies?  What would best serve the Forces, salute him as you toss him out or would you use his knowledge and skill for the good of the service?

I really relate to what is being said about how standards must be in place to keep our ability to be effective.  And I personally agree with the idea that the level one keeps one’s physical body should be a considerable factor in promotions.  I wanted to express a dissenting voice against those ideas that say those who are a little older, a little heavier, a little more worn than a 17 year old fresh recruit are slovenly reffuse that should be replaced like one replaces a tire.

 

[Synthos]

We wouldn't want our officers to allow their shape to become too rounded...

If they did then enemy snipers know that the fat guy is the one to shoot.

Just another reason to stay in shape.
P.S.
  There's a guy in the U.S. army who lost a leg in (iraq?) but was able to meet their physical fitness requirements so they let him back in.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

We wouldn't want our officers to allow their shape to become too rounded...

If they did then enemy snipers know that the fat guy is the one to shoot.

You're saying that like it is a bad thing.... (*oops*)  (swiftly placing hand over mouth)  I'll just start doing push-ups now  ushup: