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Next Iteration of the Naval Warfare Officer Rebranding

Navy_Pete

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I share your experiences and your head scratching. But I ask again, at what point is open stupidity addressed and challenged ?
It's really, really hard to get rid of safety/environmental rules once they are in place, even if they are demonstrably stupid and unnecessary. No one wants to be the one to make something 'less safe', even if it's not actually less safe.

Even the 2m meter standoff for cell phones and no smoking along the route for ammo doesn't really make much actual sense.

I think it took something like 20 years to get rid of the 'no smoking throughout ship, transferring fuel' pipe on the CPFs, even though they are almost continually transferring fuel in practice. Seriously, it's marine diesel; you can put out a cigarette in it.
 

daftandbarmy

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Poets Cove in Bedwell Hbr. Loved going to that place. PCT Moose is actually coming alongside another Orca class vessel for a nested anchorage.

I've kayaked around there alot, nice place. We were thinking about buying a timeshare there once. Best thing I never did! :)
 

OldSolduer

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I read the title of the thread and thought "man that's gotta hurt being branded twice".

I are infuntree - red crayons are tasty
 

FSTO

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If they're at Poet's Cove, for their sakes, I hope so. They have a really nice swimming pool there, and a bar of course :)
I've enjoyed that pool and bar several times. Getting into the Customs Jetty was a little tight but I never had a problem. Then the fun police got involved and AKAIK you can only go to anchor in Bedwell.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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Are you sure it's just the fun police? Even when we were going there with four or five YAG's in the old days the wharf custodian was telling us that we were pretty close to the wharf's limit. The gate vessels were not allowed, even only one at a time, nor the PB's, again even only one at a time. Any two Orcas bring as much weight/displacement as a single gate vessel and more than a single PB. That may have something to do with it.
 

Weinie

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Are you sure it's just the fun police? Even when we were going there with four or five YAG's in the old days the wharf custodian was telling us that we were pretty close to the wharf's limit. The gate vessels were not allowed, even only one at a time, nor the PB's, again even only one at a time. Any two Orcas bring as much weight/displacement as a single gate vessel and more than a single PB. That may have something to do with it.
I have no context to deal with your conversation other than having been shown a JOUT locker on a YAG in the late 1980's. As an Army guy, I was laughing, at least there was some room to stretch out in a hootch.
 

boot12

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Slight tangent, but in hindsight I think we made a mistake with the Orca-class. They're sufficiently large and complex (and create enough wake) that the RCN essentially treats them like mini-MCDVs, when for what we truly need out of a training vessel we really should have been looking at something that was closer to a "super-YAG".

I.e., Slightly better QOL, more range/endurance, more ability to operate in foul weather, etc., but with the overall expectation that the class is designed to train junior shiphandlers, and therefore should have a simple and cheap frame that would be easy to maintain (and knock dents out of) following extended periods at sea and minor berthing incidents that are inevitably going to occur.
 

FSTO

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Are you sure it's just the fun police? Even when we were going there with four or five YAG's in the old days the wharf custodian was telling us that we were pretty close to the wharf's limit. The gate vessels were not allowed, even only one at a time, nor the PB's, again even only one at a time. Any two Orcas bring as much weight/displacement as a single gate vessel and more than a single PB. That may have something to do with it.
More than likely your assessment is correct. I'm at an age where every decision made by my superiors seems to be more about curtailing activities than enhancing capabilities.
 

dimsum

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Slight tangent, but in hindsight I think we made a mistake with the Orca-class. They're sufficiently large and complex (and create enough wake) that the RCN essentially treats them like mini-MCDVs, when for what we truly need out of a training vessel we really should have been looking at something that was closer to a "super-YAG".

I.e., Slightly better QOL, more range/endurance, more ability to operate in foul weather, etc., but with the overall expectation that the class is designed to train junior shiphandlers, and therefore should have a simple and cheap frame that would be easy to maintain (and knock dents out of) following extended periods at sea and minor berthing incidents that are inevitably going to occur.
Perhaps it got "scope creeped" and some folks thought that they could take some of the MCDV jobs like patrol, etc. rather than "just" a trg vessel.

But yeah, having a "super-YAG" would be great.
 

daftandbarmy

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More than likely your assessment is correct. I'm at an age where every decision made by my superiors seems to be more about curtailing activities than enhancing capabilities.

That's only becasue they know you have them figured out by now and, therefore, can't be trusted :)
 

Colin Parkinson

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Slight tangent, but in hindsight I think we made a mistake with the Orca-class. They're sufficiently large and complex (and create enough wake) that the RCN essentially treats them like mini-MCDVs, when for what we truly need out of a training vessel we really should have been looking at something that was closer to a "super-YAG".

I.e., Slightly better QOL, more range/endurance, more ability to operate in foul weather, etc., but with the overall expectation that the class is designed to train junior shiphandlers, and therefore should have a simple and cheap frame that would be easy to maintain (and knock dents out of) following extended periods at sea and minor berthing incidents that are inevitably going to occur.
As I recall they took a existing design and put a extra houseworks on it, which limits where it can go for weather reasons?
 

MARS

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Perhaps it got "scope creeped" and some folks thought that they could take some of the MCDV jobs like patrol, etc. rather than "just" a trg vessel.

But yeah, having a "super-YAG" would be great.
Definitely possible. IIRC we did employ them as part of Op PODIUM which you certainly could not have done with YDT-10 or the other YAGs.

However the ORCAs are not nearly as versatile for "jetty bashing" which you literally need to do - physically (and hopefully gently) bash a jetty - to fully train NWOs in precise ship handling. We still do approach/departure training in the sims and at sea, but of course the CO is going to pull out of the maneuver earlier in real life than you would like to when doing it in a MM/FFG. When it was light airs, I would get pretty close, but with any wind and/or swell, particularly being set onto the jetty, unless line handlers are deployed to the jetty, and at least a couple of folks on roving fenders, I would generally pull away about earlier than I would have liked.

It has been a while since I was in the simulator, but I always found the THX-level sound effect it generated whenever you collided with something to be well over the top and unnecessary. Didn't matter if you rubbed gently or T-boned something at 30kts - the sound effect was the same...and pretty intense. Screeching of twisted metal and all that. I could see that it bothered the students greatly sometimes and they needed to be calmed down and reassured that they hadn't just (virtually) killed their shipmates.
 

daftandbarmy

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Definitely possible. IIRC we did employ them as part of Op PODIUM which you certainly could not have done with YDT-10 or the other YAGs.

However the ORCAs are not nearly as versatile for "jetty bashing" which you literally need to do - physically (and hopefully gently) bash a jetty - to fully train NWOs in precise ship handling. We still do approach/departure training in the sims and at sea, but of course the CO is going to pull out of the maneuver earlier in real life than you would like to when doing it in a MM/FFG. When it was light airs, I would get pretty close, but with any wind and/or swell, particularly being set onto the jetty, unless line handlers are deployed to the jetty, and at least a couple of folks on roving fenders, I would generally pull away about earlier than I would have liked.

It has been a while since I was in the simulator, but I always found the THX-level sound effect it generated whenever you collided with something to be well over the top and unnecessary. Didn't matter if you rubbed gently or T-boned something at 30kts - the sound effect was the same...and pretty intense. Screeching of twisted metal and all that. I could see that it bothered the students greatly sometimes and they needed to be calmed down and reassured that they hadn't just (virtually) killed their shipmates.
:)

Big Hero GIF
 

dimsum

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It has been a while since I was in the simulator, but I always found the THX-level sound effect it generated whenever you collided with something to be well over the top and unnecessary.
Wait what? It wasn't a not-so-subtle "if you screw up, this happens" nudge?
 

Navy_Pete

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Definitely possible. IIRC we did employ them as part of Op PODIUM which you certainly could not have done with YDT-10 or the other YAGs.

However the ORCAs are not nearly as versatile for "jetty bashing" which you literally need to do - physically (and hopefully gently) bash a jetty - to fully train NWOs in precise ship handling. We still do approach/departure training in the sims and at sea, but of course the CO is going to pull out of the maneuver earlier in real life than you would like to when doing it in a MM/FFG. When it was light airs, I would get pretty close, but with any wind and/or swell, particularly being set onto the jetty, unless line handlers are deployed to the jetty, and at least a couple of folks on roving fenders, I would generally pull away about earlier than I would have liked.

It has been a while since I was in the simulator, but I always found the THX-level sound effect it generated whenever you collided with something to be well over the top and unnecessary. Didn't matter if you rubbed gently or T-boned something at 30kts - the sound effect was the same...and pretty intense. Screeching of twisted metal and all that. I could see that it bothered the students greatly sometimes and they needed to be calmed down and reassured that they hadn't just (virtually) killed their shipmates.
Ah, that explains why they were so horrifed when years ago during recruitment they put a bunch of engineers in the simulators (along with an Army guy from a recruiting center and some others) and we drove through other ships (having literally no idea what we were doing).

The YAGs were pretty fun; remember one of the other boats 'finding' some deadheaded logs by running over them and other shenanigans. They weren't allowed to be out after dark so we were alongside somewhere fun every evening, and passing orders via a brass tube, navigating on a open bridge and all the other really analogue type features was a great way to learn things.

Get the feeling that they wouldn't have been allowed off the wall if they weren't an RCN flagged ship, but fortunately nothing significant happened.
 

Colin Parkinson

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There is a YAG for sale currently. You would not likely be able to overnight charter as the vessel won't meet the TC Marine safety regs which actively discouraged wooden charter boats for fire reasons. That being said for a wooden boat of that size they be a good buy as they were well cared for for most of their lives. Douglas Ludwig Photography, Weddings, Tofino, Ucluelet, Parksville, Victoria, Nanaimo, Vancouver, Black Rock, Wickaninnish Inn, Long Beach Lodge, by Douglas Ludwig . Contact Douglas by phone: 604-970-6856

But if I win the lottery I am buying this as training vessels for the Navy League Shore Built Expedition, Charter Yacht For Sale - Western Shore -...
 

Underway

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Slight tangent, but in hindsight I think we made a mistake with the Orca-class. They're sufficiently large and complex (and create enough wake) that the RCN essentially treats them like mini-MCDVs, when for what we truly need out of a training vessel we really should have been looking at something that was closer to a "super-YAG".

I.e., Slightly better QOL, more range/endurance, more ability to operate in foul weather, etc., but with the overall expectation that the class is designed to train junior shiphandlers, and therefore should have a simple and cheap frame that would be easy to maintain (and knock dents out of) following extended periods at sea and minor berthing incidents that are inevitably going to occur.
Looking at their sailing schedule, nope. They are entirely booked out to support training months in advance. Reserve units on long weekends, NWO 3 and 4 courses. Nav course. Command development course. Bosn training. Dive training. MCDV's on both coasts have been freed to do missions instead of courses (Carib, Africa, Arctic, Hawaii, Mexico, Norway).

Sometimes they support work ups as OPFOR but the YAG's did that as well. What the problem was the MCDVs were treated as training vessels not the other way around.

Honestly the Orca's are perfect.
 
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