No longer an OT Trade

[aesop081]

George, i realize you are usin the army as an example but thats where your logic fails.

Would you listen to their presentation, or brush it off as some UFI from someone who has "never seen the elephant"? 

That guy may have spend the previous 5 years as a Steward and has never been in the field, seen a tank and much less "seen the elephant", but if i follow your argument, he now has credibility.



But anyways, i'm not an INT Op and never will be so i give up. Our shortfalls mean recruiting from the street is comming one day or another. You can either fight it or find the best way to make it work to the best possible result.

 

[zorro]

... and no one would accuse the American Military Intel community of being a 'dumping ground for undesirables'.

Sometimes I'm not so sure...

 

[Remius]

From a recruiting perspective we used to do CTs for Int OP or Int O and the requirements were a minimum time served within an operational context in whatever trade.  We used to push people towards the combat arms to get that experience be it reg or reserve.

The key problem is manning at all levels.  I honestly think a great many trade should be remuster only to get that well rounded individual and also to reward or intice serving members to stay in.  The problem is also that some branches just won't let their people go.  i don't know how many people come through door and say, "Well I wanted to remuster to Ammo tech but they wouldn't let me so I got out only to get back in that trade"

MPs are a good example.  There was an incident with a couple of young MPs who were later disciplined and the CWO for these guys lamented how things were different because all these young 20 year old Cpls (acting) didn't have enough military experience to deal with the military like they did years ago when it was mostly a remuster trade.

 

[medaid]

Sometimes I'm not so sure...

And you're speaking about this from what kind of experience??

I'm sure the people I know in that MOS would love to hear your criticisms about how they do their job.  :

 

[zorro]

And you're speaking about this from what kind of experience??

I'm sure the people I know in that MOS would love to hear your criticisms about how they do their job.  :

I obviously have no first hand experience in terms of the everyday job functions of an invidivual in the American intel community.

However, one can draw their own conclusions as to the integrity of the information they put together based upon current and RECENT world affairs. I'm sure we both know where I'm going with this...

Again I have no experience with INT, but some of the evidence gathered in recent years in support of certain american operations throughout the world seems more than negligible.

Thats all I was getting at....I'm sure they do their jobs very well indeed.

 

[meni0n]

What a bad generalization, hopefully you don't use that in your day to day activities. How would you feel if someone met a crappy Ocdt somewhere and then said you're one too  based on his recent experiences. And what these world events that US Military Intelligence have been bad at?

 

[medaid]

Zorro... Wow... I am actually speechless.

 

[zorro]

My intention was definately not to generalize! I don't see where in my post it would lead one to believe that I was saying ALL members of the American intelligence community are "bags".

Didn't mean to insult anyone. Just wanted to say that sometimes its hard to rationalize decisions made... though at the same time this is probably due to the points of view delivered to us through the media. Still, I stand by my statements and strongly disagree with the basis of some of the american operations worldwide.

Just excercising the right we all have in this great country to free speach. Try not to blow my comments out of context.

 

[meni0n]

But there is still no link between Army intelligence and what you are describing.

 

[PuckChaser]

Didn't mean to insult anyone. Just wanted to say that sometimes its hard to rationalize decisions made... though at the same time this is probably due to the points of view delivered to us through the media. Still, I stand by my statements and strongly disagree with the basis of some of the american operations worldwide.

So because of the United States government's decision to invade Iraq, you've decided that the entire American Intelligence community (which you've never met, or seen their products) is to blame for that conflict? I think you are indeed generalizing, and blaming a relatively small community for the actions of politicians. Int groups create a product based on many different areas. What you do with that product is not their problem.

 

[aesop081]

how about we get back on track.....

Milnet.ca staff

 

[zorro]

So because of the United States government's decision to invade Iraq, you've decided that the entire American Intelligence community (which you've never met, or seen their products) is to blame for that conflict? I think you are indeed generalizing, and blaming a relatively small community for the actions of politicians. Int groups create a product based on many different areas. What you do with that product is not their problem.

No, I'm not deciding the entire community is to blame, read the prior post.

No, I'm not generalizing, read the prior post.

Actions of politicians? Perhaps you are right, however, politics and military often go hand in hand do they not?

In reference to the originally topic, YES I think recruiting off the street is an acceptable means of filling the needs of the INT trade.

..........Done with this thread/debate.

 

[George Wallace]

No, I'm not deciding the entire community is to blame, read the prior post.

No, I'm not generalizing, read the prior post.

Actions of politicians? Perhaps you are right, however, politics and military often go hand in hand do they not?

In reference to the originally topic, YES I think recruiting off the street is an acceptable means of filling the needs of the INT trade.

..........Done with this thread/debate.

???

And after that, you still have the nerve to make an opinionated decision on something you admit that you know nothing about.

 

[zorro]

???

And after that, you still have the nerve to make an opinionated decision on something you admit that you know nothing about.

I was under the impression that the original debate revolved around whether or not recruiting off the street would be a feasible means of filling training vacancies in the INT trade, and furthermore, whether direct entry w/ proper training in place would provide an effective INT-O/Op as opposed to (as you have advocated) pulling experienced members from other trades.

All I am suggesting is that the training system will do its work and provide an acceptable "finished good". I don't presume to know everything about the trade, however, I also don't think it is necessary to be a subject expert here to make an opinionated decision.

Am I missing something here?

 

[George Wallace]

I was under the impression that the original debate revolved around whether or not recruiting off the street would be a feasible means of filling training vacancies in the INT trade, and furthermore, whether direct entry w/ proper training in place would provide an effective INT-O/Op as opposed to (as you have advocated) pulling experienced members from other trades.

All I am suggesting is that the training system will do its work and provide an acceptable "finished good". I don't presume to know everything about the trade, however, I also don't think it is necessary to be a subject expert here to make an opinionated decision.

Am I missing something here?

Actually you are missing something here.  This is not an INT related subject.  If everyone reads the first post, he only used INT as an example.  He was asking:

I'm wondering how others are feeling about trades like INT becoming a direct entry trade.  No longer will you need to put in the time and hope you pass all the testing to get into one of the smallest trade in the CF, you can now enter right off the street.  I know I'm not impressed with the idea.  I want someone with some kind of a military background to be watching out for my intrests.

OT is not solely an INT Trade prerequisite (or wasn't).  Other Trades require one to OT into them.  Is it time to do away with the OT requirements in ALL these Trades, or is there a necessity to keep the Trades Trg short and to do so only accept people already qualified QL5A?

 

[zorro]

Well in any case, my point remains the same.

As I posted earlier (pages earlier now...), I think the training system will do its job. Do what you have to do to fill the deficits in a given trade.

 

[blacktriangle]

Well I think those that really want a trade will do time in another to gain some experience, but it may deter a few who are dead set on the specific job, and don't want to wait 4+ years to even apply for it.

I'm personally looking at the OT req as a chance to improve and learn new skills (soldier first), as well as gain a broader perspective on the CF/World that will assist me in future trades, and once out of the military.

Call me stupid, but in 4-6 years, I hope that what I'm doing now will have shown comittment to the CF, thus allowing me to OT to something else.

 

[exgunnertdo]

It's a lose/lose sometimes.  I am in a "robber trade" as they are called.  There is typically only one position per year for DEO TDOs, and the prereqs are high - a masters and significant previous experience in adult education.  Competition is tight for that one DEO position and typically the successful person has a wealth of experience.  Funny - even though the only real route to my trade is by OT, we still get the "why'd you abandon your first trade" comments - especially from those in our first trade!  Within our branch, many down play our previous experience, believing that a TDO with 15-20 years experience in their first trade is the same as a TDO with 3 years experience in their first trade.  I know a lot of Int Os and they get the same thing.

For my own trade - I believe that the OT route should remain.  A certain amount of education and/or experience in the training world is necessary to be a training advisor, IMO.

For other trades - I'll leave that up to the SMEs in the trade.  If the powers that be in the Int world have decided that Int Ops/Int Os can be direct entry, then the training system has to react - and I'll swoop in with CFITES and help them  ;D.  The other part of the picture is postings.  Where do you post the DEO Int O, compared to the former Cbt Arms guy with 3 tours and command experience?  I think that needs a closer look, too.

Edit - silly typo

 

[Deleted member 9665]

Well in any case, my point remains the same.

I think the training system will do its job. Do what you have to do to fill the deficits in a given trade.

I tend to agree with that statement.

 

[twistedcables]

I am applying directly into INT OP off the street - mind you I have a very unique background

lets see how I goes...