Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges

[Blackadder1916]

COTC enters the chat, along with a similarly distinguished list of graduates.

And with its Navy and Air Force counterparts; University Naval Training Division (UNTD) and University Reserve Training Plan (URTP)

From the 1966/1967 calendar of Memorial University of Newfoundland.



ROTP was similarly discussed in that calendar. This was the last year that the Reserve programmes were mentioned in MUN's calendars. In issues from previous years greater detail about pay and benefits was provided such as this one from 64/65.

https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/muncalendars/id/10706

or this one from 1951/52 https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/muncalendars/id/15337/rec/1

And what they looked like back then in 1957

Memorial University of Newfoundland contingent, Canadian Officer Training Corps: front (l-r) Capt. M.J. Stapleton, Gordon Gover, George Hatch, Gary Homer, Clyde Wells, Major W.J. Blundon, Cyril Power, Mike Kennedy, Neville Russell, Tom Lafosse, Capt. Doug Eaton; middle (l-r) Roger Simmons, Tom Rissesco, Alan Frew, David LeFeuvre, John Power, Derek Kearney, Cordell Hull, Clyde Newhook, John Dale, Harold Russell, Bruce Hannaford, Thomas Furey, David Clark, Bob Olivero; back (l-r) Ivan Seaward, Ben Gardner, John Small, Graham Peddle, Sid Noel, Len Cowley, Frank Dominie, Gerald Ryan, David Riche, George Lee, Ron Healey, Carl Vincent, David Carmichael.

One of those gentlemen (name highlighted) went on to become the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And with its Navy and Air Force counterparts; University Naval Training Division (UNTD) and University Reserve Training Plan (URTP)

From the 1966/1967 calendar of Memorial University of Newfoundland.

View attachment 78181

ROTP was similarly discussed in that calendar. This was the last year that the Reserve programmes were mentioned in MUN's calendars. In issues from previous years greater detail about pay and benefits was provided such as this one from 64/65.

https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/muncalendars/id/10706

And what they looked like back then in 1957

View attachment 78182

And RESO, of course

 

[FJAG]

And RESO, of course

RESO turned out some pretty good folks.

 

[daftandbarmy]

RESO turned out some pretty good folks.

 

[WLSC]

It would be a shame if those opportunities were closed off to kids today, who are just like I was.

All that is true, very true. The issue is more with the one who are still serving and still lead among themselves instead of for everyone. 50% of GO/FO, how many non RMC have Réal and influential command positions. Doctors, layers and Padre don’t have those influential position.

If your are not one of the boys, 80% of the chance you’ll be second fiddle even if you are better than your college.

 

[dimsum]

All that is true, very true. The issue is more with the one who are still serving and still lead among themselves instead of for everyone. 50% of GO/FO, how many non RMC have Réal and influential command positions. Doctors, layers and Padre don’t have those influential position.

If your are not one of the boys, 80% of the chance you’ll be second fiddle even if you are better than your college.

In my experience (non-RMC grad but having worked with tons of RMC folks), the "first folks I think of" group is broadly as follows:

• First posting: Who did I go to school with
• Second posting: Who did I serve on sqn/unit with
• Third + posting: Who were the folks I served with, went on advanced courses with, etc

I honestly don't think people really tier their friend groups based on school after the first two postings.

 

[ueo]

I remember hearing murmurs that this was the preferred COA from after the Deschamp report. Make RMCC a "finishing school" per se. Continue ROTP as an entry plan at Civy U, have members complete a 12-18 month indoctrination post grad, then release them into the wild.

It would allow for a more diverse education for certain fields, while allowing RMC to focus on the 3 other pillars that have been pushed aside.

Does a degree make a better inf pl comd?

The biggest problem with the Degreed Officer Corps is the MilCol system, not the concept of a degreed officer corps.

Bit of elitism??

 

[ueo]

Why restrict it to officers?

Have a robust SLT program baked into all initial training. It's a requirement to advance as NCMs as well as for officers.

Had one early 80's Dunno todays status.

 

[Kilted]

The RMC website, incuding services for students and Moodle appear to have been down since at least yesterday.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Does a degree make a better inf pl comd?

Not in the slightest. Like I said earlier upstream, the Degreed Officer Corps doesn't really come into play until you're looking at the Maj/LCol rank, and even then, it's more of a Post Grad, professional development piece.

I have to wonder if the recommendation of having a degree was foisted by the Public Service, as that has been their benchmark for who is a "manager" and who is not. Kind of hard to apply that to a lot of CAF occupations. Especially when a lot of the tasks being asked of our junior officers have fuck all to do with their field of study.

Bit of elitism??

Bingo. We don't have an aristocracy in Canada, but we do have our "betters" in society; and a lot of them rest on the laurels of academia.

Being a CFR, it's comical being asked where I went to school and what I majored in. I imagine it's a fishing expedition to see who I know and how connected I am with their own network.

When I dash their hopes by saying "I fell off the monkey bars and when I woke up I had pips on..." the conversation takes a turn for sure.

 

[dimsum]

Does a degree make a better inf pl comd?

Directly? No. 4 years of writing essays or conducting science experiments probably doesn't help you lead an attack.

But I would argue that for anyone in the military, Officer or NCM, having experience with different viewpoints is not only helpful in the other aspects of their job (dealing with the public, media, etc) but also just as humans in general. The military is already seen as extremely insular and not representative of society, while trying to recruit from....society. Acting like we're some secret club isn't helping anyone.

I would also argue that the time to do this is right in the beginning of someone's career, like in ROTP for example. For many people, trying to introduce new viewpoints in their 30s/40s is a bit too late - we're seeing that right now with "the dinosaurs" that everyone likes to talk about, not to mention "the Boomers". The Rule of Primacy is a thing.

 

[WLSC]

In y units, we were 3 or 4 WO and sgt who did have a degree. It as clear the the commission give authority, not the degree. It is however a « sub culture » that the degree make the officers. This is in part du to RMC which mix the 2.

Do I think Officer should be degreed, yes. I don’t see another NATO allies that isn’t. Heck even in the south you need a degreed ton become an E8. Education is good, it’s what the system make of it and how it’s used that is bad. It turn education into an almost bad word because it’s not the good leaders that go up but the one with proper formal education.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't think that had anything to do with RMC though. That is because of what you accomplished in your career, RMC or not.

That was your entry path for sure, but as @FJAG said, an expanded ROTP Civ-U or COTC program would have the same effect with a much lower likelihood of institutionalized nepotism.

There, FTFY

 

[SupersonicMax]

Not in the slightest. Like I said earlier upstream, the Degreed Officer Corps doesn't really come into play until you're looking at the Maj/LCol rank, and even then, it's more of a Post Grad, professional development piece.

I have to wonder if the recommendation of having a degree was foisted by the Public Service, as that has been their benchmark for who is a "manager" and who is not. Kind of hard to apply that to a lot of CAF occupations. Especially when a lot of the tasks being asked of our junior officers have fuck all to do with their field of study.

Not at all. The recommendation came from Doug Young, the then Minister of National Defense, in 1997, to the Prime Minister as a fallout of the so-called « Somalia Affair ». His report is called « Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces »

 

[dapaterson]

There are associated studies by four (?) academics.

 

[Good2Golf]

There, FTFY

Indeed. There was no institutional nepotism with COTC grads…especially not any with COTC grads who previously attended Brebeuf College…

 

[daftandbarmy]

Directly? No. 4 years of writing essays or conducting science experiments probably doesn't help you lead an attack.

But I would argue that for anyone in the military, Officer or NCM, having experience with different viewpoints is not only helpful in the other aspects of their job (dealing with the public, media, etc) but also just as humans in general. The military is already seen as extremely insular and not representative of society, while trying to recruit from....society. Acting like we're some secret club isn't helping anyone.

I would also argue that the time to do this is right in the beginning of someone's career, like in ROTP for example. For many people, trying to introduce new viewpoints in their 30s/40s is a bit too late - we're seeing that right now with "the dinosaurs" that everyone likes to talk about, not to mention "the Boomers". The Rule of Primacy is a thing.

Well, the new buzzword is 'lifelong learning'.

Having a flexible system to help people progress academically in a variety of ways, when they're ready, is a pretty good way to diversify your risk as an organization.

There's even a RRSP thing that helps support that approach: Participating in the Lifelong Learning Plan (LLP) - Canada.ca

 

[Brad Sallows]

At some point the experience of earning a university degree is highly desirable (maj?). But the time required is long and the mind is best suited to learning while young, so it's best done at the front end. That also achieves the prerequisite for shorter, but also useful, advanced degree programs.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I take the dissenting view that unless the degree is directly related to military service I question its value for the CAF.

I know plenty of people with degrees where it hasn’t provided them with any problem solving skills, effective argumentative skills, or really any benefit in life other than 100k of student loans.

Why do we need degreed officers other than the status symbol that comes with it? I think its a solution in search of a problem brought on by a elitist society which has a strong emphasis on education without a justification for said emphasis.

 

[dapaterson]

I take the dissenting view that unless the degree is directly related to military service I question its value for the CAF.

I know plenty of people with degrees where it hasn’t provided them with any problem solving skills, effective argumentative skills, or really any benefit in life other than 100k of student loans.

Why do we need degreed officers other than the status symbol that comes with it? I think its a solution in search of a problem brought on by a elitist society which has a strong emphasis on education without a justification for said emphasis.

Read the report to the Prime Minister on the Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces and its associated reports on the basis of the requirement, then come back.

I will agree that much of the work done by the officer corps likely doesn't need that level of education - suggesting we could radically downsize the CAF's officer corps from the current 25%...