Pay: Statements, Backpay, Benefits, Deductions (Taxes, T4), Deployed ect... [MERGED]

[secondchance]

Reason I ask is because I'm a mature applicant, and would be having to leave a gov't union secure job to serve our country.  I'm not looking to get rich, just don't wanna hafta take a big step backwards $$-wise and bankrupt my family in order to do it!?

My opinion is next.
I applied for DEO and I had a look to pay scale for DEO. For me DEO pay scale is acceptable and I agree with this amount of $$$ what Canadian Forces pays. It is not my business how much Canadian Forces pays to ROTP or another  program.Before today I even didn't check another programs.
There is budget  for DEO.
For example DEO 2LT  $3764  and ROTP 2LT $4401.There is difference about 600$. If you believe it can bankrupt your family you need to think if you need this job.
Everybody has different financial needs. In my opinion DEO pay scale is OK for me and it can not bankrupt my family.
In your case just think before apply.

 

[jwtg]

Primarily to Shamrock...
Sorry you didn't care for my question... no intention of insulting anyone, just asking how this works, and perhaps why? I'm ALWAYS looking to learn something new, have no problem standing corrected, and most of all hate being misinformed...  Hence coming here, to the experts. I sincerely welcome being Set Straight on any topic if I'm wrong, or simply looking at it the wrong way. No need to feel threatened or belittled by someone asking a question or seeiking more info. NOTHING in my original post was meant to be critical of the process, merely inquisitive. Please don't object to someone asking a question, else the purpose of these forums is in doubt...


My life experience and training are thus far significant in the civilian world.  Science Degree, Commercial/Multi-IFR pilot license, advanced First Aid/Defib, Rescue SCUBA diver, Advanced Sailing, Taser (harder to get than firearms license these days!), munitions, Peace Officer, ERT advanced tactics, the list goes on I won't bore you...

...BUT in terms of military I'm a mere "applicant" and don't know your terms of DP1 or DP2, think I get the meaning, tho...  However, I clearly understand your argument that a fresh DEO 2LT has "1 day in" and thus no claims to seniority of any kind, and I don't dispute your point whatsoever that I would likely spend most of my Lieutenancy in some sort of training, given the time scales involved.

BUT...  that's no different than the ROTP grad example you just cited. This person, yes with 3-5 years in, has ALSO been in training the ENTIRE time, taken in approx $150-200k in salary, plus the cost of that 4-yr education  (approx another $25-30k?), and just getting out of University has also provided the taxpayer with zero tangible service by that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but University students (ROTP or otherwise) don't generally apply their trade until completed? Don't deploy? Don't perform resupply missions, fight, practice medicine, fly, etc?

Yes, you are absolutely correct that in between those 4-5 yrs of school, the ROTP candidate would have completed some of the courses I would be looking to begin on my 'Day 1', but we're talking a couple 7-9 week courses vs a 4-5 year degree.

As valuable as the ROTP program is, just basically wondering out loud why qualified applicants with education and life experience like myself, seem DIScouraged from applying (via payscales) in favor of someone fresh outta highschool with little skill foundation to build upon. Business-wise, seems best to recruit and retain qualified individuals... saves a LOT of time and $$, and our CF are no different than any other gov't outfit in experiencing serious budget pressures.  In my one case alone, CF would be saved 5 years and approx $250k...  and that's if I don't skip Primary Flight Training! (thus saving more time, freeing up a spot for another student, skipping the months of OJT before and/or after, etc)

This post is in no way meant to be arrogant, it's an honest inquiry. No need to squash someone's Profile cuz you disagree...

Time in is time in.  I had a friend (NCM) waiting for a course for a long time; he was doing OJT/OJE working a canteen at the base.  He must have been the highest paid coffee-pourer in the CF.  During that time, he still increased in his pay incentive level once he completed a year in rank.  Was his work of particular value to the CF? No.  Did he have 1 more year service under his belt, and thus earn another year's pay grade? Absolutely.

You're not complaining about being paid too poorly- you're questioning why ROTP grads are paid better than you (during time at 2Lt/Lt) so basically, you're questioning why the ROTP program is so good. 

The first reason is time in.  Whether it's time studying or time training, it is time in the Canadian Forces, and because of that, we receive certain benefits.  One of those is a slightly higher rate of pay than DEOs.  Another is that we are very near to 5 years service so we are very close to having an extra 5 days leave as well.  I notice that isn't in your list of grievances, but it's there.  Because we've been in longer, we're entitled to 5 more days leave.

We also will have completed 4 years worth of pensionable time.  4 years as an employee with a good pension plan is 4 years.  That means we can effectively retire earlier than you with the same pension.  I'm not trying to be mean, but you're not questioning our progress towards our pension either.  Why? Because it makes sense- we've been employed for four years, we get four years pension time done.

We also owe 5 years service, or a helluva lot of cash.  We are, in that sense, disadvantaged because we can't simply walk out if we don't like it anymore. 

If the ROTP program sounds like a great deal for someone who wants to be a CF officer, it's because it is.  That's why it exists, to (hopefully) recruit high-caliber young (usually) people who could be pursuing other career options.  I certainly could have, but I want to be in the CF and they had a great plan available to me.  Unfortunately, you missed the boat by going through school on your own.  It isn't unheard of for people to go through the ROTP having already completed an undergrad degree, when their degree isn't applicable to their trade.  So, if you want to be treated like an ROTP grad, go and find a trade that you're degree won't let you join under, and then apply for that trade under the ROTP.

I imagine you wouldn't find this deal favorable, because it means going through four years of university at a sub-minimum wage pay level. 

You'll make more cash in your first 4 years than any ROTP student does, because our first 4 years (except for those with previous time in) are at approximately 1500/month.

 

[Shamrock]

Primarily to Shamrock...
<snip>

...BUT in terms of military I'm a mere "applicant" and don't know your terms of DP1 or DP2, think I get the meaning, tho...  However, I clearly understand your argument that a fresh DEO 2LT has "1 day in" and thus no claims to seniority of any kind, and I don't dispute your point whatsoever that I would likely spend most of my Lieutenancy in some sort of training, given the time scales involved.

DP1 is development period 1.  This includes BMOQ, environmental training, and trades training.  For my trade, that equates to just shy of 52 weeks's training time. 

BUT...  that's no different than the ROTP grad example you just cited. This person, yes with 3-5 years in, has ALSO been in training the ENTIRE time, taken in approx $150-200k in salary, plus the cost of that 4-yr education  (approx another $25-30k?), and just getting out of University has also provided the taxpayer with zero tangible service by that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but University students (ROTP or otherwise) don't generally apply their trade until completed? Don't deploy? Don't perform resupply missions, fight, practice medicine, fly, etc?

OCdt Pay scales, after four years, a grand investment of $76,051 to have him or her achieve Occupational Functional Point (OFP) (assuming four years of school and completion of DP1 and degree at end.  Tack on an additional $6k per annum for degree and we're sitting just above $100,000.  Ideally, the candidate will graduate and march tohis gaining unit fully qualified.

2Lt DEO pay scales, after two years, is $94,812.

Beyond OFP, the CF will get three additional years from the ROTP candidate before paying him or her as a Captain.  The DEO has one year.

I don't see your cost savings manifesting.

 

[Duckman54]

Thank you gents...  Many good points, very well articulated.

Had I known all this in my youth...  I still would failed out Pilot bcz of my vision, but likely would be fairly senior AEC officer at this point...

 

[armyvern]

...
My life experience and training are thus far significant in the civilian world.  Science Degree, Commercial/Multi-IFR pilot license, advanced First Aid/Defib, Rescue SCUBA diver, Advanced Sailing, Taser (harder to get than firearms license these days!), munitions, Peace Officer, ERT advanced tactics, the list goes on I won't bore you...
...

Alas it is too late.  But, for what it's worth, I once knew a lad with mucho experience and ego who perched solidly atop his pedestal and liked it there.  One day, when I kicked him in the 'nads, he fell pretty quick all the way back down to mere mortal level.  It was fun.  One of my own life experiences that I will not forget soon.

 

[Teen_Cadet]

I often browse forces . Ca jobs page. I noticed that it used to say in the job descriptions that the starting salary for a (insert ncm role here) was 33,000. Now it says for fully trained (whatever job) that the Starting salary is 49,000. Was there a pay raise or Are thy being misleading by referring to fully trained as corporal and not a private or am I missing something?

The same goes for officer jobs. Went from 45,000 to 51,000 for fully Trained starting salary. Has there been a raise or does it refer to lieutenant instead of second lieutenant ? Or am I missing something again?
I am just wondering what's going in and would appreciate some guidance. Thanks in advance.

 

[dapaterson]

Rates of pay are all available at: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/index-eng.asp

Looking at the numbers, I suspect the "Fully Trained" NCM salary is for a Cpl, no spec pay, basic IPC; the "Fully Trained" officer is likely a Lt vice a 2Lt.

 

[Teen_Cadet]

Okay thank you. That was what I presumed. I appreciate the response, that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[OblivionKnight]

I have a question regarding NCM trades and pay rates. On the Forces.ca website for Postal Clerk, it states "The starting salary for a fully-trained Postal Clerk is $49,400 per year; however, depending on previous experience and training the starting salary may be higher". It also states that the Basic Occupational Qualification Training is 6 weeks long. Does this infer that upon completion of 6 weeks of training, the salary would be $49,400?

The reason I ask is because according to the Forces.ca Pay Rates (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page?) the salary is based on rank, which is in turn based on years of service among other things.

Also, does holding a degree make a difference in pay rates for NCM trades?

 

[smale436]

Not really. If you look at the pay scale you can see that the Private 3 pay incentive is 4120 per month gross. 4120*12 = 49440 per year. You receive Private 3 after two years of service, however I would assume based on how short the Postal trade QL3 you will be trained prior to reaching that pay level.

As far as degrees go, I don't have one but a co-worker in the same trade who chose not to go the officer route does have one in some artsy-fartsy type of thing. We are paid the same. He knows he could have gone officer but wanted to work hands-on with aircraft on a daily basis.

 

[OblivionKnight]

Thank you for the reply, much appreciated.

 

[Numpty]

OK, question on DEO pay...trying to sort out the Army one untrained officer at a time here.

Need some translation of CBI's. I am being told by Base Pay Office that untrained 2Lt's are held to IPC 2.  However, no one can seem to find me a reference for that. I have found this:

204.211(11) (Limitations on pay increments)
Despite CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) and paragraph (12), the number of pay increment increases may not exceed the maximum number of pay increments for the applicable pay level and table to this instruction, and is further limited as follows:
(a) in the case of an officer cadet who is paid under pay level B in Table "A", to a maximum of one increase; and
(b) in the case of a second lieutenant who is paid under Table "B", to a maximum of one increase, and in the case of a lieutenant who is paid under Table "C", to a maximum of three increases.

Fine, no problem there. Except, I have one confirmed 2Lt that is at IPC 2, therefore, has gotten 2 increases (Basic to IPC 1; 1 to 2). So, said 2Lt must be on Table "C" as Table "B" only gets one increase.

Now, where the hell does this "held to IPC 2" come from? Anyone have a ref for it? Base Pay has not been able to satisfy me and has dumped it back into my lap to work out with the Chief Clerk. He's an old Fin WO and it doesn't make any sense to him either.

Any help or advice you can give this old Tn guy would be appreciated. Before I bump this up to DCBA I would like some more brains to look at it.

Thanks.

Wook

Sorry to bring up the oldies, but I just stumbled upon this after much searching. So instead of starting a new thread....

As a DEO I started at IPC (Basic) over two years ago. After year one, I progressed to IPC (1). The second year just passed and I didn't progress to IPC (2). I went to the base pay office recently to inquire and the clerk looked into it, and provided me with CBI 204.211(11) after a lengthy search. So apparently as it states, All 2Lt paid under Table "B" are limited to only one increase in IPC.

My question: Why are the so many IPC increments for DEO if you can only go up one, even if you are stuck a 2Lt for 2.5-3 years?

I understand that ROTP, CEOTP, CFR, SCP, UTPNCM can all come in with prior service and possibly start at different IPC levels (level D and E have 10 IPC levels!!). I've come across rumblings of instances in the past (earlier 2000's) where DEO have come in at difference IPC's due to different levels of education (3yr, 4yr, Masters, PHD...), but I have not heard of this being practiced anymore. As far as I know, the people on my basic who came in with masters made the same (IPC Basic) as I did.

My other question: Are there any 2Lt's out there (DEO preferably but others welcome) who have over 2 years in and have progressed more than only one IPC?
And obviously without filing an exception IAW CBI 204.211(12) due to training delays.

Thanks, I believe that's all

Scales http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page

 

[NSDreamer]

Apologies for the necro Post.
I just wanted to thank the admins for saving all this useful information in this thread. Good god, by utilizing the search function and some honest work I was able to find what I wanted to know (why there are no provincial taxes ony my pay statement) without making a new thread.

Subtle hint to certain individuals who persist in asking questions that have been answered

 

[Navy_Pete]

Quick question for anyone in the NCR; in November there was direction for all of us that lived in  ON and worked in QC (for instance, LSTL) to fill out a form so that we would continue to pay Ontario tax rates (all under the federal tax box).

I got my pay stub this am, and it now says I'm paying provincial tax (aka QC) and is at a higher rate then previous.  I was unable to get a hold of the pay office today, but someone else was told we are now paying a 'reduced QC tax rate'.  Aside from the fact that that isn't what the original message or the required form said, does anyone have any info on this?  I know you can request for various reasons that they remove less then the designated tax rates with the proper forms, but that's not what we filled out.

Also, is anyone aware of a reference on what provincial tax rates we pay?  For example, for IR, attach postings, which are similar situations (place of duty you report to is different province then your residence).

Thoughts?

If nothing else, seems stupid to have thousands of people pay QC taxes, have QC and CRA sort out how much is owed back to Canada, then transferred back to ON, when they know that's what is going to happen.  Also, means I'll now get a T4 and a releve 3 for no really good reason.

edit to add:

Sorry, forgot to mention that I am aware I am considered a residence of ON for tax purposes as per http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/tchncl/ncmtx/fls/s5/f1/s5-f1-c1-eng.html

My question is specifically relating to what tax rate they are deducting throughout the year.  I also previously had many problems with a previous tax return when I first got in and was posted out of QC prior to Dec 31st after finishing basic training.  Took months to get the QC revenue people to stop trying to fine me for not paying QC taxes and trying to recover the difference after the refund came back from CRA, so would like to avoid that if at all possible.

Just seems strange that they would suddenly change it this year after years of basing tax deductions off province of residence vice employment while working in the NCR.  There are tens of thousands of Ontarians that commute every day into QC.  I thought they would have been happy with the extra beer sales...

 

[George Wallace]

I don't think you have anything to worry about, other having had those deductions taken off your pay.  You will pay taxes to the Province in which your reside on 31 Dec.  In your case you'd be using the ON tax forms and should recoup any "over-payment" on your Return.  Other than the wait time for the Refund if your calculations are correct, you should get all your monies back.

[Edit -- Sorry.  I missed your edit.]

 

[devsnrnco]

But is it true that women can claim bras? Because they would be just as likely to wear them if they were not in the CF as men would be to shave.

 

[BinRat55]

But is it true that women can claim bras? Because they would be just as likely to wear them if they were not in the CF as men would be to shave.

You're funny Mr. Necropost.

You are also confusing the terminology. It's a BTU "Claim" through your orderly room. IOW, DND will pay back a fixed amount allowing a female member of the Forces to purchase supportive undergarments. More if they are going overseas on tasking! This is NOT a claimable expense on your taxes.

If a female has told you she is "claiming" her bras then this is what she means.

:facepalm:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You're funny Mr. Necropost.

You are also confusing the terminology. It's a BTU "Claim" through your orderly room. IOW, DND will pay back a fixed amount allowing a female member of the Forces to purchase supportive undergarments. More if they are going overseas on tasking! This is NOT a claimable expense on your taxes.

If a female has told you she is "claiming" her bras then this is what she means.

:facepalm:

Time to back off the sarcasm and snootiness. If you're going to answer someone's legitimate question, a straightforward answer is all that's needed.

---Staff---

 

[CountDC]

simple answer.... nope!
Your employer is obliged to make deductions and remit them either monthly OR bi-monthly

Not fully correct.  You can submit a request to CRA to have your taxes paid directly to them by you.  If they approve they will send you the details and the authority for us to stop deducting the taxes at source.  Only seen it twice though so I imagine there are some strict hoops to jump through.

 

[CountDC]

Here's one for this group.

I am on TD all of the time.  When I get "reimbursed" for the TD costs (hotels, meals, rentals etc), this all shows up on my T4 at year's end as income.

So all of this money that I was reimbursed (out of pocket), I get taxed on, and probably loose about 40% to the tax man.

How (or can) I claim this at tax time, so that I don't get nuked every year?

I suggest you see someone as there is no way your TD should be showing up on your T4.  It is reimbursement for expenses (some assumed) and not income.  Doesn't even go into the pay system to end up on your T4.  If it is showing on it then someone is doing something wrong.  In 30 years you are the first person I have heard to have this happen.