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Pipelines

  • Thread starter Thread starter QV
  • Start date Start date
I am struggling to see why they want to use this route over the existing one to Churchill?
Because it's their idea? A FN-led consortium likely favours a FN-led port.

From what I have been told, the ground between say Thompson and Port Nelson is more conducive to construction and the water around the port is deeper
From this site:

" It was later determined that the port of Churchill, at the mouth of the Churchill River to the north, was better suited to the needs of commercial shipping and the facility at Port Nelson, along with the bridge, was abandoned without ever having been used. "
And from this site:
"The conclusion of the report was that the site is a poor location for a port due to its shallow waters and openness to the north wind, and that the Churchill River was a far superior location offering a natural deep harbor."
"The Nelson River is a less then desirable location for a port as it is wide and open to the north, offering little if any protection for ships. It is also very long and shallow, allowing for only a few hours a day when ships can safely navigate through a narrow channel. Conversely, the Churchill River is a highly desirable location for a port as it has an ideal natural harbor that offers significant protection for ships and has a sufficiently deep channel for most of the route."


Interestingly, it also offers a political angle. Manitoba's border with Ontario had not yet been etched in stone (both provinces once actively claimed the Kenora area - part of me sometimes wish they had won) and there was a concern that Port Nelson might end up in Ontario (if the current border was a straight north-south line, it would have).
 
Because it's their idea? A FN-led consortium likely favours a FN-led port.


From this site:

" It was later determined that the port of Churchill, at the mouth of the Churchill River to the north, was better suited to the needs of commercial shipping and the facility at Port Nelson, along with the bridge, was abandoned without ever having been used. "
And from this site:
"The conclusion of the report was that the site is a poor location for a port due to its shallow waters and openness to the north wind, and that the Churchill River was a far superior location offering a natural deep harbor."
"The Nelson River is a less then desirable location for a port as it is wide and open to the north, offering little if any protection for ships. It is also very long and shallow, allowing for only a few hours a day when ships can safely navigate through a narrow channel. Conversely, the Churchill River is a highly desirable location for a port as it has an ideal natural harbor that offers significant protection for ships and has a sufficiently deep channel for most of the route."


Interestingly, it also offers a political angle. Manitoba's border with Ontario had not yet been etched in stone (both provinces once actively claimed the Kenora area - part of me sometimes wish they had won) and there was a concern that Port Nelson might end up in Ontario (if the current border was a straight north-south line, it would have).
Ah yes , the Great Rat Portage Border war.
God knows how long it went on for before being settled in the House of Lords.
Manitoba had a better legal case but Ontario had better ( Some say better connected.) lawyers.
 
Because it's their idea? A FN-led consortium likely favours a FN-led port.


From this site:

" It was later determined that the port of Churchill, at the mouth of the Churchill River to the north, was better suited to the needs of commercial shipping and the facility at Port Nelson, along with the bridge, was abandoned without ever having been used. "
And from this site:
"The conclusion of the report was that the site is a poor location for a port due to its shallow waters and openness to the north wind, and that the Churchill River was a far superior location offering a natural deep harbor."
"The Nelson River is a less then desirable location for a port as it is wide and open to the north, offering little if any protection for ships. It is also very long and shallow, allowing for only a few hours a day when ships can safely navigate through a narrow channel. Conversely, the Churchill River is a highly desirable location for a port as it has an ideal natural harbor that offers significant protection for ships and has a sufficiently deep channel for most of the route."


Interestingly, it also offers a political angle. Manitoba's border with Ontario had not yet been etched in stone (both provinces once actively claimed the Kenora area - part of me sometimes wish they had won) and there was a concern that Port Nelson might end up in Ontario (if the current border was a straight north-south line, it would have).
There is a great video on YouTube on Port Nelson put out by the MHS.
It’s called ‘Abandoned Manitoba 2’ Port Nelson, Manitoba’s Forgotten Seaport on Hudson Bay.

From watching this video, I don’t get the sense of there being any deep water form ocean ships in the area.
 
Over on that other coast, another jigsaw piece in the whole "petro-products to the sea" puzzle lays itself out ...
Letter to PMMC attached.
 

Attachments

Over on that other coast, another jigsaw piece in the whole "petro-products to the sea" puzzle lays itself out ...
Letter to PMMC attached.
Which ones?
All of them? Some of them?
I think it would be very very interesting/helpful that when they say a band, or two or ten are against something being done in a certain area that they should ‘highlight’ that band(s) location on a map in order to get a sense of that band(s) is even geographically close to the issue at hand.
 
Which ones?
All of them? Some of them?
I think it would be very very interesting/helpful that when they say a band, or two or ten are against something being done in a certain area that they should ‘highlight’ that band(s) location on a map in order to get a sense of that band(s) is even geographically close to the issue at hand.

And what their commercial interests are.
 
Over on that other coast, another jigsaw piece in the whole "petro-products to the sea" puzzle lays itself out ...
Letter to PMMC attached.

Looks like someone in BC smells money... ;)

Pay Me Money Talks GIF by Originals
 
The Haida got their's. Now to continue their traditional relationship with the mainlanders.
 
Which ones?
All of them? Some of them?
Here's the list of who's who in this group - if there were dissident FNs, I think we'd have heard by now (but maybe it's just me that hasn't).
I think it would be very very interesting/helpful that when they say a band, or two or ten are against something being done in a certain area that they should ‘highlight’ that band(s) location on a map in order to get a sense of that band(s) is even geographically close to the issue at hand.
Best I could do from the site ....
1753265611628.png
 
Here's the list of who's who in this group - if there were dissident FNs, I think we'd have heard by now (but maybe it's just me that hasn't).

Best I could do from the site ....
View attachment 94777
Thanks!
I see plenty of ‘gaps’ where there very well could be a ‘bands’ that would welcome development across their lands.
 
They got their park at the cost of all other economic activity. They are pissed their sworn enemies were signing revenue sharing agreement with companies.
People seem to forget (whether conveniently or ignorantly) that the Indigenous of the Americas (North, Central and South) were in almost constant warfare (for land, people, resources, etc) in the years before and after Europeans came. The thought of them being in competition with each other still today is rarely, if ever, talked about or acknowledged.
 
People seem to forget (whether conveniently or ignorantly) that the Indigenous of the Americas (North, Central and South) were in almost constant warfare (for land, people, resources, etc) in the years before and after Europeans came. The thought of them being in competition with each other still today is rarely, if ever, talked about or acknowledged.
and they had very little land that they actually could call a permanent home. They followed the herds in many cases or were chased out of more prime locations by stronger, jealous groups: much like the English and French in Normandy or the Germans and French in Alsace. Very few population groups exceeded a few thousand. Very few were sustained by good farming methods as with all the land around it was just as easy to clear a dozen acres crop it until it was burnt out and then move a bit. The notion of protecting the land and husbanding their resources that they try to portray today is ludicrous. Ryerson was a farm boy who moved in with the Credit Valley tribes and spent years teaching them proper farming techniques.
 
People seem to forget (whether conveniently or ignorantly) that the Indigenous of the Americas (North, Central and South) were in almost constant warfare (for land, people, resources, etc) in the years before and after Europeans came. The thought of them being in competition with each other still today is rarely, if ever, talked about or acknowledged.
Hence the mental gymnastics around land acknowledgements asserting the same piece of land as the ancestral territory of three different nations that took it from each other in sequence.
 
1753379920867.png


So here is today's visit from the Good Idea Fairy.

Danielle Smith follows Rachel Notley's lead.

Charter the MV Petali and her sister.

MT Petali is an Aframax crude oil tanker. Formerly known as Mastera for almost two decades and briefly as Mikines in early 2022 and Alma until September 2023, she and her sister ship Tempera were the first ships to utilize the double acting tanker (DAT) concept in which the vessel is designed to travel ahead in open water and astern in severe ice conditions.The icebreaking tanker was built to transport crude oil year-round from the Russian oil terminal in Primorsk to Neste Oil refineries in Porvoo and Naantali.

The Double Acting concept is the original propulsion design for the NoCGV Svalbard that birthed the Harry de Wolf concept. It is a Scando-Canadian design having roots in Vancouver.


Crude oil tanker
Lloyd's Register of Shipping
252.0 m (826.77 ft) (overall)
44.0 m (144.4 ft)
53.1 m (174 ft)
  • 15.3 m (50 ft) (summer)
  • 8.6 m (28 ft) (ballast)
22.5 m (74 ft)
1A Super
  • 15.2 knots (28.2 km/h; 17.5 mph) (max)[3]
  • 13.5 knots (25.0 km/h; 15.5 mph) (service)
  • 3 knots (5.6 km/h; 3.5 mph) (1 m (3.3 ft) ice)[12]
15–20[13][14]
[td]Type[/td]
[th]
Classification

[/th]
[td]Tonnage[/td][td]Length[/td][td]Beam[/td][td]Height[/td][td]Draught[/td][td]Depth[/td][td]Ice class[/td][td]Installed power[/td][td]Propulsion[/td][td]Speed[/td][td]Crew[/td]


Saskatchewan purchased rail cars for potash transport
Saskatchewan, Alberta and Canada all bought rail cars for grain transport
Rachel Notley's Alberta bought 7000 rail cars to move 120,000 barrels of oil per day due to pipeline congestion.

Have FedNav or Algoma (Edit: Or Groupe Desgagne) manage the hulls after acquiring them on a bare bones charter.

Feed Churchill with rail cars at whatever speed can be managed. Plan on losing money to test out the concept.

Feasibility of rail movement
Feasibility of ocean movement
Market acceptance.

 
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If that pans out then shorten the rail route by rebuilding Bruderheim at Portage la Prairie. It is on the rail line to Churchill and the TC Energy Mainline, the Enerbridge Mainline and the Keystone Pipeline.

Bruderheim cost 340,000,000 CAD to build and fills a unit train with 100,000 barrels of oil a day

8 trains to fill an Aframax like Mastera.


....

This Good Idea Fairy brought to you courtesy of Brian Zinchuk


....

If there is life in the idea, if there is a market (I believe there is), then the market will decide on a Portage trans-shipment point, rail line improvements, alternate pipelines, improving Churchill or adding Port Nelson, building a fleet of PC4 tankers*.

Oil tankers (and bulk-freighters), even ice-strengthened ones, are relatively cheap to build. Fed Nav has built 4 PC4/DNV ICE10-15 freighters and is operating three of them.

Daewoo has received orders for 15 LNG tankers, all built on the DAT principle of the Mastera.

...

Ice-strengthened ships and their operations are not magic.

LNG from Churchill by rail from Alberta or NG by pipeline from Cochrane to Moosonee on James Bay or Winnipeg to Port Nelson with LNG plants at each port.

...

If I can't go left then I must go right.
 
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