• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Politics in 2016

Status
Not open for further replies.
Eye In The Sky said:
Simplest solution is for her
Simplest solution for political parties/prime ministers.

I don't care one way or the other about sophie.

Just make a standard, either they make it a position and it's all covered and political spouses are forced into public life or they don't and if the spouse chooses to enter public life the party picks up the tab. I prefer the latter but either way there should be a recognized standard so these silly little controversies don't pop up.
 
Let's see jmt18325.

First of all, your post below is allegedly your answer for a proof that Harper made all the decisions by himself, while Trudeau jr. defers to experts.

Your posts provides no evidence of that whatsoever.

Moreover, I will add my comments in yellow to your post on what I believe the points you raise are irrelevant.

jmt18325 said:
We can start with the long form census.  Statisticians everywhere were against its demise.

And police officers everywhere argue they shouldn't need a warrant to enter a house and inspect it. That's why we don't let police officers dictate those rules. What if all statisticians said that they need laws to force people to answer their questions on voting intentions? Would that make such law right? And BTW, did you know that statistics Canada removed all questions on income from the census this year? Know why? Because they found out that the data given to Revenue Canada is better and more complete, so they will use that set of data. Now here is the interesting thing: the data for 95% of the questions asked on the census form is already in various government data bases, in more complete and precise form, and could be accessed by StatsCan if they wanted to. Does this sound like a good reason to force Canadian to participate in a census to get info the government already has under penalty of law - fines and prison, when, BTW, no other western country does?

We can continue to Canada post.  Trudeau originally promised he'd restore door to door delivery.  It seems it's been explained to him that such a thing isn't possible while maintaining profitability.  Now, you see a wait and see approach combined with a study.

Where do you get that this was explained to him. First of all it is not impossible: The easy straightforward answer of doing this while maintaining profitability has been given to Post canada: delivery on alternate days (i.e. every second day). What has been explained to Trudeau, and properly so, is that Post Canada is a Crown Corporation with it's own board: For him as Pm to interfere with their decisions on how to run their corporation would be illegal - in fact removing those operations from the boot of the political party in place is the very reason crown corporations were invented to start with.

The military is unable to buy things - literally.  So, you see an approach of consultation on how we should move forward.

Are you joking? The military purchases billions of dollars of stuff every year. Sure, some big ticket items (and smaller ones, like boots  :nod:) seem to get bogged down, but that does not mean that no purchases are ever made. Moreover, you honestly think that the public should be consulted on the type of main battle tank we should purchase or the colour of our uniforms, or the amount of ammunition stocks we should have for a given weapons system?

The Fort McMurray wildfires saw the government answer every singe request from the Alberta government, and had the PM acting in deference to people on the ground when it came to what kind of help they needed and wanted.

And what requests did Alberta make of the government of Canada exactly? First of all, forest fires are not a Federal jurisdiction - as a result of which Canada has no resources to provide for those. It is the various provinces that have agreements between them to share forest fire fighting equipment. Second of all, the Federal government has standing protocols to assist the provinces in disasters, including special funds, AND ALL OF THESE REQUESTS ARE PROCESSED BY THE CIVIL SERVANTS WHOSE JOB IT IS TO EXECUTE THESE PROTOCOLS (including assistance by the military). Absolutely nothing of that requires any intervention by the politicians whatsoever. These very same protocols and funds were used by the Conservatives, including Mr. Harper for the Calgary floods, and for international disasters (such as the earthquake in Tibet) exactly the same way. How does that prove that Harper acted on his own, while Trudeau listened to experts?

The assisted suicide bill was crafted with outside experts and a panel of MPs.  Though it doesn't go far enough for many, it goes further than what Harper was doing.  He had 3 people on a panel, all of which had spoken against the whole idea.

Shows how little you know about bills. ABSOLUTELY EVERY SINGLE bill put before parliament  is crafted by experts: They work for the government and are civil servants. No one else drafts bills, even if the advice of external experts is sought on the results of the bills. Second, the Harper government had not yet tabled ANY legislation on the subject, though you may be certain that some had been crafted and prepared for introduction shortly after the election, so you have nO idea what a Harper bill would have proposed. Moreover, since the same civil servants helped draft both, and they were working from the same Supreme Court decision, I am willing to bet that there would be a 95% + commonality between the two.

I could go on.  I'm sure you won't agree.
 
Altair said:
Simplest solution for political parties/prime ministers.

I don't care one way or the other about sophie.

Just make a standard, either they make it a position and it's all covered and political spouses are forced into public life or they don't and if the spouse chooses to enter public life the party picks up the tab. I prefer the latter but either way there should be a recognized standard so these silly little controversies don't pop up.

+1  :goodpost:
 
I'm not going to respond to the tangential stuff that I got involved in earlier, as this will spiral into a long discussion.  If you wish, we can have that discussion at another time.

What I will say about the party funding her - in the past, the government has provided the PMs spouse with one assistant - sometimes more.  That's the precedent.

I would only support the party picking up the tab for things she does for the party.
 
Altair said:
Yup.

In my opinion the party should pick up the tab but if the two main parties both agree to make the PMs spouse a position I wouldn't care too much either.

Either way, there should be a standard one way or another so this doesn't pop up every time there is a change of goverment/pm.

Again for clarity, I support that the parties pick up the tab if only because some spouses want to be in the limelight  (Mulroney, Trudeau) and some value their privacy (Harper). If the spouse has an office and staff and official duties that more or less forces them into a job they may or may not want.

I get where you're coming from, you're trying to find someone to pay for this. Problem is, she's rich and can afford it herself if she really wanted to do it.

An issue that I can see with the political party paying for her staff and by extension the events, is that she's going to be traveling with the PM to do some of these events. She's now using government resources (the plane) for partisan political purposes (because the party is paying for it, altruistic or not). We hung senators for $30k in expenses over decades. Sophie Trudeau has $100k a year in nannies already, and wants more staff. That would make her 4th on the list of Senators who owe money to the Crown...
 
Is it a precondition that the Prime Minister be married?

I'm pretty sure that Trudeau Pere wasn't at the time he entered Sussex.

If there is no expectation of a Prime Ministerial spouse there can be no expectation of spousal duties.  Mme Gregoire-Trudeau is quite at liberty to stay home with the children.  She is also at liberty to hire somebody to fix the kids a PB&J if she chooses.  The Chef is provided for the use of the Prime Minister.  Likewise the chauffeur and the cleaning staff.

If she feels stultified with life as Mme Gregoire Trudeau then she is quite at liberty to volunteer her time as she sees fit. 

If the Liberal Party wishes to pay her to show up in loco Trudensis then that seems perfectly acceptable to me.

None of this requires a penny of taxpayer money being spent on Mme and the Trudeau children.
 
jmt18325 said:
I'm not going to respond to the tangential stuff that I got involved in earlier, as this will spiral into a long discussion.  If you wish, we can have that discussion at another time.

What I will say about the party funding her - in the past, the government has provided the PMs spouse with one assistant - sometimes more.  That's the precedent.

I would only support the party picking up the tab for things she does for the party.
There lies the problem. Sometimes it's one. Sometimes it's more. Whats the standard? One staff unless they wants more? That's not a standard.

Make a standard that everyone can agree upon and live by it and we don't need to have this conversation again for the rest of our lives.

The United states has a standard. They don't say anything about the first lady. Everyone knows what what to expect.  In Canada this discussion pops up far too often and there is mass hypocrisy from both parties. (Not the NDP because they have never had this problem)
 
Other unmarried Prime Ministers

Sir Mackenzie Bowell
William Lyon Mackenzie King
R.B. Bennett
Kim Campbell
 
Chris Pook said:
Is it a precondition that the Prime Minister be married?

I'm pretty sure that Trudeau Pere wasn't at the time he entered Sussex.

If there is no expectation of a Prime Ministerial spouse there can be no expectation of spousal duties.  Mme Gregoire-Trudeau is quite at liberty to stay home with the children.  She is also at liberty to hire somebody to fix the kids a PB&J if she chooses.  The Chef is provided for the use of the Prime Minister.  Likewise the chauffeur and the cleaning staff.

If she feels stultified with life as Mme Gregoire Trudeau then she is quite at liberty to volunteer her time as she sees fit. 

If the Liberal Party wishes to pay her to show up in loco Trudensis then that seems perfectly acceptable to me.

None of this requires a penny of taxpayer money being spent on Mme and the Trudeau children.
meh. Every prime minister has had a household budget to spend on staff.

So far the trudeau's aren't spending more than the harpers and that's good enough for me.

If sophie wants to get I volved in public life that's fine as well. If she needs taxpayer money higher than what the trudeau's already get in PM salary and household budget then they should get the liberal party of Canada to foot the bill.

Unless of course the Canadian political class decides that it needs the services of a first lady in which case make it a position, give the spouse an office and budget and be done with it.

Either way, make a standard and be done with it.
 
Where's the proof either way that one PM had a larger staff than the other? You and JMT have trotted that out that Harper had a larger staff, but no substantiation. I find it hard to believe that Harper got a free ride from the media on a large household staff and Trudeau is being raked over the coals...
 
The problem appears to be that neither her nor whoever passes for her EA grasps the first rule of effective time management, which is only to commit oneself within one's capabilities and resources.  Allowing whining to slip out into the public arena to the effect that she can't do everything she wants to do isn't really a productive way of justifying a staff position.

For those inclined to spin off into Harper's decision-making process: do not assume he failed to do his homework (including consulting "experts") - he is as notorious as PE Trudeau for studying files and briefs; and do not assume he ignored the advice of consultants.  Consider the possibility that the factors he considered most important to his decisions were not those others believed to be important.  Example: cancel the long-form census because its questions are invasive, the merits of the data and opinions of the statisticians being uncontested.

Consultation is a convenient way of deferring a decision you don't want to make.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Consultation is a convenient way of deferring a decision you don't want to make.

Its how you disassociate from an unpopular decision, "Those guys picked this CoA".
 
PuckChaser said:
Where's the proof either way that one PM had a larger staff than the other? You and JMT have trotted that out that Harper had a larger staff, but no substantiation. I find it hard to believe that Harper got a free ride from the media on a large household staff and Trudeau is being raked over the coals...
where did I say harper had a larger staff? I said PMJT is spending no more on household staff than PMSH
 
Altair said:
where did I say harper had a larger staff? I said PMJT is spending no more on household staff than PMSH

Then why is the MSM making it an issue? I have never seen, in any article, that PMSH had a similar-sized staff, or that Laureen Harper required the same amount of support. If they did, its a non-issue. Since they're not citing anything of the sort, I think you're grasping at straws. PMSH had a chef and household manager which are basic entitlements to keep up 24 Sussex.
 
PuckChaser said:
Where's the proof either way that one PM had a larger staff than the other?

The PMO says that's the case.  Do you have evidence that contradicts that?

You and JMT have trotted that out that Harper had a larger staff, but no substantiation. I find it hard to believe that Harper got a free ride from the media on a large household staff and Trudeau is being raked over the coals...

He didn't have a larger staff, he had the exact same staff budget as everyone else did/does.
 
I'm not the one who made the statement, it's up to you to prove your facts. I'm not going to sell your argument for you.
 
jmt18325 said:
Unlike the new boss, looking back, the old boss had an air of arrogance, and not much else.  Trudeau has, IMO, made smarter decisions, as he understands that on varying issues, there are smarter people in the room.

Well, opinions are like assholes as they say.  Everyone has them.
 
PuckChaser said:
I'm not the one who made the statement, it's up to you to prove your facts. I'm not going to sell your argument for you.
I cannot  find anything yay or nay on it other than the liberals saying they would use the same budget as the previous prime minister.

So unless you are privy to some information that the rest of us are not them you'll need to take the liberals at their word.
 
The "10 billion deficit during election" that grew to "29 billion after election"?  That Liberal word?

Pass.  I don't know if I'd believe them if they said the sky was blue during the day and air has oxygen in it.
 
Brad Sallows said:
The problem appears to be that neither her nor whoever passes for her EA grasps the first rule of effective time management, which is only to commit oneself within one's capabilities and resources.  Allowing whining to slip out into the public arena to the effect that she can't do everything she wants to do isn't really a productive way of justifying a staff position.
That right there.
PuckChaser said:
Where's the proof either way that one PM had a larger staff than the other? You and JMT have trotted that out that Harper had a larger staff, but no substantiation. I find it hard to believe that Harper got a free ride from the media on a large household staff and Trudeau is being raked over the coals...
Well, when it comes to "who elected them to work for the electorate?" type of staff, does PMO count?
... The increase in exempt staffing is even sharper in the Prime Minister’s Office.  In 2005, it took 68 exempt staff to run Martin’s PMO. This year, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s command-and-control centre employs 94 people — 38 per cent more than Martin’s, according to the figures provided by Treasury Board Secretariat.  The number of PMO staff was even higher in 2010, when the office counted 109 exempt bodies ...
And this isn't from one of small-l-liberal, sandal-wearing media outlets, either.

As for wives of PM's, staff 'em up according to demand, or by formula for everyone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top