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Potential career effects of not having deployed to Afghanistan

Piper said:
If the 2011 'end date' or 'mission change date' (or whatever it's called these days) holds true, then few of the troops joining now will see combat (or in my case, most of the folks going through ROTP right now will not deploy to Afghanistan in the kinds of roles they think they are).

I can't wait for when, in a couple years down the road, we see the Army split along the lines of those who were there and those who weren't with all the career, promotion and other implications that holds. There's a reason they are quickly cycling mid to senior level army officers through that mission...


(Edit by Mod to correct typo in slit thread title. - MO)

For young officers who will get to the field force after the mission wraps up, I wouldn't worry about promotion being hindered by the lack of an Afghan combat tour because you will generally be competing with your own generation who would be in the same boat. In any case, as others have said, that generation may well have its own shooting war. Since you can't do anything about it I wouldn't worry about it.

Can anyone here shed some light on how the Canadian Army was in the late 50s with the integration of Koren War Vets, WWII Vets and those without either? Please note that I am not asking rhetorically.
 
For those whom I haven't bored with tales of my younger days, I enlisted in 1957 as a gunner and was commissioned in 1961. My service up to and including the award of the CD was spent on regimental duty (including training at the school and a spell as an IG) except for 15 months at HQ 4 CIBG which was still field oriented. In that time I saw the preponderance of Second World War veterans thin out, followed by the Korean Vets. At the same time there was not the plethora of UN ribbons as the multi-mission days were still in the future.

As I recall it, those of us without any ribbons were aware of the distinction between the folks you mentioned. We also understood that the number of ribbons was not an indication of ability. There were super soldiers and duds along with the good old middle of the pack types in all versions, be-ribboned or not. Respect was based on character and performance. I only saw one instance where a person, actually a WO2 (MWO today), tried to pull the 'have you ever been shot at" line. There also was a wide range in age in the field units - say from the teens into the late forties and the early fifties at nearly all ranks. Mind you, First War vets were active in the Commissionaires, so it's all relative, I guess.

The army was aware of the thinning out of the combat vets and it was of some concern at the highest level. There were various schemes dreamed up to attach people to other Commonwealth armies, but as far as I know, all were stillborn. By 1970 people with the Cyprus ribbon began to consider themselves as the next best thing to combat vets, and there was some looking down the nose at everybody else.
 
Old Sweat said:
The army was aware of the thinning out of the combat vets and it was of some concern at the highest level. There were various schemes dreamed up to attach people to other Commonwealth armies, but as far as I know, all were stillborn. By 1970 people with the Cyprus ribbon began to consider themselves as the next best thing to combat vets, and there was some looking down the nose at everybody else.

A trend that carried on until about 1989, with the exception of a few UNMO positions with other deployments...

 
pbi said:
Shooting war or not, Afghanistan will slowly fade away, just like other shooting wars (ones that took a much greater toll on us). It will continue to inform our thinking for a while, to a gradually declining degree, until something comes along to push it into the wings once and for all. Unfortunately, much of the experience we have accumulated amongst mid-grade officers and NCOs will be lost in the next few years by the retirement wave: some veterans who will make it to higher ranks will have had their Afgh experience at a very low level, and will find it doesn't apply directly (or at all) to the problems they have to struggle with. It's called the evolution of armies.

That said, we should be very careful not to disrespect or disregard what we have learned (and, I think, in many cases re-learned) in Afghanistan. It has been a very hard school for what was, in 2001, essentially a peacetime Army that was badly in danger of losing its way. We have come a very long way in those eight years, and now we can see our brothers and sisters in the Air Force coming along as well. There will be much good to remember and retain for quite a while. The war has brought us back to our true traditions as Canadian soldiers, as opposed to the phony "tradition" of UN peacekeeping that was marketed for public consumption, and was really only based on about a decade or less in which our major force deployments were under the UN.

Eventually, Afghanistan will be off the table and onto the shelf. But that's my point: onto the shelf, not into the garbage can.

Cheers

Well said.

As a reservist, I come from a slightly different perspective on this one. I'm from a reserve regiment that contributed 8 to 1-06, 35+ to 3-08, and looks to have in excess of 40 embarking on TF 1-10. From all appearances, 1-10 will probably be our last chance to send troops to the sandbox in any significant numbers. While the numbers certainly are not comparable to any reg force unit, for a reserve regiment they're pretty significant.

Because of the peculiarities of the reserves, few of our more senior leadership have had the chance to deploy to Afghanistan. We have a couple captains, and MWO and a couple Sergeants, but other than that it's all JRs. Already on our tour I was hearing that the more senior people back home have been trying to figure out just what to do with us, and how to integrate us back into the unit. In many cases our experiences and skill sets have gone so beyond the typical regime of IBTS and other basic soldier skills training that most of what we've learned is simply irrelevant to normal training in a reserve unit, due to the specificity and complexity of the various tasks we did overseas. A typical reserve regiment, for instance, has little use for my knowledge of combat logistics patrols. The same could be said for personnel deployed in CIMIC or PSYOPS. The battlegroup guys can bring a bit back, but even there TTPs change so quickly that relatively little of what they have done can be translated into the basic lessons learned that form the backbone of skills maintenance training at the reserve level. Basic soldier skills always endure, of course, but proficiency in these certainly isn't contingent on a tour in Afghanistan.

From what I've seen, most of the reservists coming back home from Kandahar are being held in VERY high esteem by their units, and those of us who stay in will likely find ourselves elevated above other peers who do not have the overseas experience we have, despite it being largely irrelevant to the level of training we do on a normal basis. All else being equal, reservists who have volunteered to do the real thing for a bit will pretty naturally stand out somewhat from those who have not either by choice or circumstance. The same can probably be said of the regular force.

There is a danger in taking our experiences in Kandahar and trying to extrapolate too much from them. What we learned in Kandahar is relevant to Kandahar. The army, and I think I can safely say that reserve regiments in particular may be at significant risk in trying to task-tailor their training specifically to a contemporary operational environment that may no longer be relevant in just a few more years. We could be largely out of Afghanistan in two years, and potentially committed in strength to some other mission, such as in Africa, within a year or two of that. Much of the specifics of what we've learned will have to be shelved.

I would suggest then that the ultimate value of Afghanistan veterans in the Canadian Forces of the post-Afghanistan near future will not be in specific experiences or lessons learned, but instead will be found in the mindset of those who've operated recently in very fluid, unpredictable tactical and strategic environments. I think that these crappy little insurgencies, brushfire wars and civil conflicts will be prototypical of what we will see for the duration of the careers of anyone who is in now. What we will have as a result of Afghanistan is at least a solid core of rising leadership who have learned the necessity of flexibility of thought and operations, and who have seen the very real application of the 'mission first' mindset that our military has traditionally been known for.

Anyone who has deployed will not likely see their career hurt, but likewise those who have not been to Kandahar will have their own kick at the cat wherever we go next. A few loudmouths might trumpet their Afghanistan experience as the be-all end-all, but the quiet professionals who guide the army will recognize who has learned from Afghanistan, even if those lessons aren't first hand. The ability to take what has been learned by others and use it to make oneself a better soldier will always be a sure path to career advancement, particularly if you seize the opportunities that inevitably will present themselves, rather than lamenting those that didn't.
 
There's another strong second order effect of Reservists deploying to Afghanistan - greater community awareness and engagement.  With much of the Regular Force now installed (for good or for ill) on large bases far removed from urban areas (Edmonton, Winnipeg and Halifax being exceptions), it's the local Reserve units that provide a greater community footprint and link to the communities.  Having those veterans out in the larger community sphere helps build closer links between the CF and the larger Canadian population.

There is however now a trend to forget, in the words of the CLS, that "Afghanistan is a war, not the war."  The skills we employ there are not the sum total of all skills and competencies we must maintain - schools teach some things we don't do in Afghanistan because they are skills that may be required elsewhere, and provide a well-rounded toolbox.  Finding the balance between mission specific and core skill training will provide debates, discussion papers and games of Mess pokey chest for the next generation...
 
I was in the British Army during the time of the Falkalnds War. 2/3rds of my regiment went to war (1&2 PARA) and we - 1 PARA - went to Northern Ireland. We had exactly the same concerns at that time.

Most of those who returned from the war were clear that any of us would have done just as well as they had. The system did not openly discriminate between Falklands vets and the rest of us. Now, more than 30 years later, my unofficial survey shows that there are just as many of my 1 PARA peers who are at full colonel level and above as there are 2 or 3 PARA 'vets'.

I don't think it matters. Do your job, keep your nose clean etc etc etc and all should be well.
 
I dont think it is a concern.  How you perform now will have far more impact.  There are as likely to be thuds with ribbons, as without.
 
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