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Protesting while serving

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Dennis Ruhl said:
I suspect that when a demonstration turns into a riot the organizers are not displeased.  While a demonstration might not make the 11 o'clock news, a riot will and media coverage is the whole point.  The leaders then get to be on TV and blame the police.  These things all seem to be scripted.

Guy in the red shirt at 3 o'clock - fire.  Maybe snatch teams are better but, hey, I'm old school.

The media are vultures for violence, and they are not happy if there is none and generally ignore the protest. May seem like the protest 'leaders' thrives on it, generally do not. Happy because we are on camera? Sure maybe, but not because of any violence that may happen which we try to discourage.
 
large scale riots are not random, there are always either professional or amateur agitators, usually at the back out of harms way, to whip a crowd into a frenzy then stand back to watch the "fun" they've created.
 
mariomike said:
I worked the Rodney King Riot on Yonge St. ( Metro version ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZtRw9II2s&feature=player_embedded#

Good example of lack of organization, lack of preparations and means by the protest organizers to handle such a large amount of people, and many joined in randomly throughout it just for the sake of rioting than any political message. That and ridiculous 1990s media sensationalism. "It is like a warzone!" Please...  ::)

 
Protest groups, at least those I been involved with, do what we can to keep the peace during protests and keep people safe, yet have lawyer/legal volunteers on hand to deal with arrests no matter who they are protester or bystander, we have designated medics to take care of injuries, provide water, and supplies to deal with tear gas, marshals and coordinators to help direct large of amount of people away from any violent confrontations, etc. We do what we possibly can, and the rest is up to the police. If police do what they can on their end to hold the peace as well, then we have a generally peaceful protests with  little to no arrests. When the police treat peaceful protesters as rioters and violently punish entire group for the idiocy of a few, then a protest is more prone to degenerate.

Why would the medics provide supplies to deal with teargas if the intent is not to defy police authority?  Why would the police use teargas in the first place if the protest is peaceful?
 
Kat Stevens said:
large scale riots are not random, there are always either professional or amateur agitators, usually at the back out of harms way, to whip a crowd into a frenzy then stand back to watch the "fun" they've created.

Are you serious?
 
Are you serious?

Until you can give a reasonable answer to my question above,  I think Kat makes a valid point.

If the intent is to defy police authority, then to say that the marshals, medics, lawyers, and organizers you mentioned are "professional or amateur agitators" would not be too far off the mark. 
 
mellian said:
Are you serious?

I don't know about "professional" rioters, but I'd be willing to bet there are people who go to protests for the sole purpose of attempting to start a riot, or at least, to take part in one.  I'm not saying these people are part of the "organized" protest group.

Much like all the non-university people who show up at Queen's Homecoming in Kingston.

Isn't there a whole other thread on actual protests, instead of further derailing this one, where I believe the OP asked about the regulations and/or ramifications of protesting while serving?

Maybe this one:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/87838.0.html
 
Yes, I'm serious, I wouldn't have posted it otherwise.  Do some reading up on the Brixton Riot of '81, as an example.  A high crime area was put under increased police presence, with very free stop and search policies.  Two police officers were attempting to aid a young man who had been stabbed in an attack. A gang of thugs intervened, assaulted the POs, and the young man eventually died of his injuries.  Word spread that the young man was a victim of police brutality, negligence, racism, and any other thing the authorities could be blamed with, setting off one of the worst riots in British history.  Professional and amateur provocateurs were responsible for the violence, the government is also culpable for creating a tense situation in a depressed area of London.
 
Kat Stevens said:
large scale riots are not random, there are always either professional or amateur agitators, usually at the back out of harms way, to whip a crowd into a frenzy then stand back to watch the "fun" they've created.


I had the opportunity, several years ago, to observe a demonstration that went, very briefly, “bad” but which was, very quickly, “put right.”

This was in a friendly, democratic but very foreign country.

The demonstration began cheerfully enough with a march, lots of horns and bells and lots of civilian riot police standing by – blocking access to a few streets. No problems. Then a few masked agitators, quite visible, began to throw rocks and do damage to private property. A police flying squad appeared and very quickly, very effectively and very (and very publicly) brutally grabbed the agitators, but only after some quite heavy and again very visible baton work – heads and bones were broken. The agitators were whisked away and the demonstration returned to “normal.”  Later that day a citizen – our hotel manager, if I recall – explained that while demonstrations were allowed, as a matter of right, property damage and dangerous acts, like rock throwing, were intolerable to all citizens, not just the police.

So, yes, there are agitators who, as a matter of tactics, want to provoke “police brutality” because they believe that most of us believe that property damage and rock throwing (which can endanger people) is some sort of civil right.

To the extent that some of us do think rock throwing and property damage are part and parcel of lawful assembly and free speech then, to that exact same extent, we they are fools.
 
Wonderbread said:
Why would the medics provide supplies to deal with teargas if the intent is not to defy police authority?  Why would the police use teargas in the first place if the protest is peaceful?

Because the police has been known to use tear gas against or near peaceful protests. Case in point, Quebec City and Seattle. Police use teargas in attempt to disperse a protest, regardless if it is peaceful or just because of a few out among a thousand being troublemakers.

Police prepares for the worse, and so does organized protesters.
 
From here...  http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Riots


"In some places, rioters have become semi-professionals, travelling to the sites of likely riots. These rioters are known as firms. This is particularly noted in sports-related riots in Europe. For example, France, Poland and England commonly have riots related to football (soccer) matches. Rioters have become quite sophisticated at understanding and withstanding the tactics used by police in such situations. Manuals for successful rioting are available on the Internet. These manuals also encourage rioters to get the press involved, as there is more safety with the cameras rolling. There is also more attention. Citizens with video cameras may also have an effect on both rioters and police."
 
E.R. Campbell said:
So, yes, there are agitators who, as a matter of tactics, want to provoke “police brutality” because they believe that most of us believe that property damage and rock throwing (which can endanger people) is some sort of civil right.

To the extent that some of us do think rock throwing and property damage are part and parcel of lawful assembly and free speech then, to that exact same extent, we they are fools.

Exactly. In the protest groups I was part of and in many others that I know of, we discouraged such acts and do not support such individuals. Part of the reason of keeping things as organized as possible is to avoid having large protest degenerate into some kind of riot, either because of these few individuals and those who would like to riot/protest for the sake of riot/protest, or by due to aggressive tactics police may employ for whatever reason. Protests are a way of expressing political disapproval about something or someone, not to start a riot.
 
Kat Stevens said:
From here...  http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Riots

The problem is that you still equate protests as riots.
 
Because the police has been known to use tear gas against or near peaceful protests. Case in point, Quebec City and Seattle. Police use teargas in attempt to disperse a protest, regardless if it is peaceful or just because of a few out among a thousand being troublemakers.

So you're saying that gas masks are used by innocent protesters to protect themselves from the illegal actions of the police?
 
My problem is that I think most, nearly all Canadian protest organizers are either wilfully blind or hopelessly and dishonestly naive: they must know that their demonstration will be infiltrated by the (maybe professional) agitators and that the agitators will commit criminal acts – rock throwing and property damage but they, the peaceful, well intentioned organizers, carry on without accepting their responsibility to control what they set in motion. Most demonstration organizers are, therefore, wilful children and so are those who join them. They really belong back home with Mommy and Daddy, learning how to be grownups, not on the streets screaming about things they do not understand.
 
mellian, I don't think anyone here is intending to say that protests and riots are the same thing.  I think the general feeling is that protests have the potential to become violent.

I also don't think that all protest groups (such as the ones you have been involved with) have the intention of holding a violent protest, but you'd have to be quite naive to believe that a protest (any protest, no matter how nonviolent they say they are) holds an attraction to those who hope it involves rioting/looting, etc.

In line with the original post here, I think people were trying to say, yes, it's okay to protest, however, when the feces hit the fan, take into consideration, you may be arrested for something else and the CF will most certainly not be happy about your involvement, no matter how peaceful you claim your protest to be.

Sometimes, being in the wrong place at the wrong time is avoidable.
 
mellian said:
That and ridiculous 1990s media sensationalism. "It is like a warzone!" Please...  ::)

Do you mean Metro couldn't handle a little stress back in the 1990's?  ;D
I hope you know that I am just kidding with you.  :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmR7qkDcrlA
I think that's the only time they called in the Army.
 
mellian said:
The problem is that you still equate protests as riots.

I'm doing no such thing, I am quite aware of the difference, but thanks for telling me what I'm thinking, I've missed that since my divorce.  A lot of riots start out as peaceful, non violent, kumbaya love-ins, but a certain demographic will try to infiltrate and instigate confrontation and violence.  To think otherwise is naive. 
 
Tried discussing this with Mellian a while ago in another thread...  ::)

She is among those who think that the authorities, and their subordinate organisations (Police, Military etc...) are invariably wrong, and the protesters are all "good, decent citizens" out to change society for the better.
She refuses to acknowledge that the majority of riots begin with a "peaceful" protest.

As I mentionned in that earlier discussion, Mellian will find adapting to the Military a difficult, if not impossible, task.
 
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