• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Protesting while serving

Status
Not open for further replies.
mellian said:
What do you suggest civilians organizing and coordinating a protest do that won't ruin the peaceful cohesion of the larger group and their need to peacefully state their message?

Last week, i took away my 14 year old daughter's internet away. She had freinds over on a friday night and they made a mess of the house. She is upset because she did not leave any of these things laying around, its all her freinds that did it. She shouldnt be paying the price for allowing it to happen and not getting them to clean up.

Are you my daughter ? You certainly sound like her.

You organize a protest, police it yourself. You want it to be peaceful, devote some of you efforts to keeping it that way. If you actively counter agitators, maybe the police wont have to teargas your sorry ass.

But then again, its all the police's fault in the first place right ?
 
Nauticus said:
So then you would agree that using tear gas to disperse a crowd would be necessary to deal with the "bad apples"?

If the crowd are violent and if it becomes a riot, they have a purpose. To tear gas crowd of people whom the majority are non-violent just because of a few people, I disagree.

Then there is concerns of collateral effects of tear gas. So much was used in Quebec City tear gas fog spread into residential areas and affected people not even part of the protest. So much was used that brings up the question as to why the police need to repeatably use it on the same crowd?

E.R. Campbell said:
Either manage your protest - make it peaceful - or go home and play with your dolls.

Large crowd of people numbering the hundred to thousands operating out of crowd mentality does not make an disciplined hierarchical unit one can order around. If that was so easy, protests and riots would be practically non existent.
 
mellian said:
In a world populated by people with the brains the gods gave to green peppers protests and riots would be practically non existent.
 
mellian said:
Large crowd of people numbering the hundred to thousands operating out of crowd mentality does not make an disciplined hierarchical unit one can order around.

So why continue to organize things you dont have the ability to control, knowing full well the high potential for problems.

You cant have your cake and eat it.......
 
mellian, I think the point is that if you decide to organise a peaceful protest, but it turns out to be violent, don't be surprised to be teargased/arrested.  As an organiser, it is YOUR responsability to make sure it STAYS peaceful.  Because you didn't PLAN it that way doesn't mean you are NOT responsible for what happened.

Edit to add:

On the other hand, if you are just part of the "peaceful protest" and it turns out to become violent, it is YOUR responsability to get the hell out of there, otherwise, you are taking part in a violent protest and you shouldn't be surprised to be teargased/arrested. 
 
mellian said:
If the crowd are violent and if it becomes a riot, they have a purpose. To tear gas crowd of people whom the majority are non-violent just because of a few people, I disagree.
Then I ask for a second time, what is the alternative? The "few people" cannot be allowed to continue to act violently or aggressively toward property, so what is the alternative? If you do not agree with teargassing, then I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.
 
mellian said:
G20 in Ottawa, November 2001.


Oh, yes. I remember them: the protests that were totally unrelated to the meeting. It was little nothing more than an excuse for a mob of juvenile delinquents to commit offences. And guys like these were involved because the "organizers" couldn't or wouldn't be responsible. If the peaceful folks had been even a little, tiny bit responsible then the police would have cleaned up the streets in no time at all. Instead the irresponsible children got in the way, shielded the criminals from the police and aided and abetted crimes.
 
To qualify:

I was in Seattle in 99 and in QC in 2001 - up close and personal - and no, it did not go down like that Battle in Seattle movie that was mentioned earlier in this thread. 

It was chaos, from the very beginning.  Neither "event" began peacefully, transpired peacefully or ended peacefully.  There was no peaceful protest.  That is not to say that there weren't people there who wanted to protest peacefully - there were, one or two, for sure - however, they never had a chance to.  They were grossly outnumbered by those who wanted to do things in a more violent manner.  That is where any semblance of "peaceful protest" ended - at the very beginning, on hour 1 of day 1 - and "rioting" began.

The problem is that not enough of the supposedly law abiding, peaceful protesters went home when the peace ended -again, at the very start.  They should have, but they didn't.  I guess curiosity, anger, bewilderment - whatever - took over.  At that moment, their mere presence contributed to the problem faced by the outnumbered, and in some cases, closely matched (in terms of weapons) security services.  If you weren't there, you cannot truly appreciate the restraint exercised by the security forces.

For Christ's sake, the rioters in QC - because I refuse to call them protesters - brought a god-damned Trebuchet.  Yep, just exercising my right to peaceful protest and assembly officer...with my catapult.

What are the organizers to do?  Leave - immediately and with everyone one you came with.  That is all you can do, but it is what you must do.  If you are truly responsible organizers, then you must have some control over those other peaceful members of your group. If you have no plans, ability or will to control your group, then you have shirked your sense of responsibility. You order them to leave, compel them to leave - or you admit that they do not have and never had any interest in peaceful protest and what appeared to be a large group of like minded "friends"  on your protest facebook page was simply a vehicle for rioters to use you to organize themselves.

If they don't leave with you, then you leave - everyone who is left on the scene once the tear gas starts flying, the fence line is taken down and the riot police are lined up mere feet away from you is a rioter - and acting illegally and on their own.  There is no need for lawyers, or kleenex - not if you leave. Just go home, do an after action assessment, figure out how you are better going to control your particular group better next time and watch the criminals get arrested on TV.

Or better yet, do what the shopkeeper at the end of this video suggests

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FlUzktT1Lk&feature=related

I don't see peaceful anywhere in that montage...

edited for grammar
 
SupersonicMax said:
mellian, I think the point is that if you decide to organise a peaceful protest, but it turns out to be violent, don't be surprised to be teargased/arrested.  As an organiser, it is YOUR responsability to make sure it STAYS peaceful.  Because you didn't PLAN it that way doesn't mean you are NOT responsible for what happened.

How do you take responsibility and become accountable for hundreds to thousands of people, especially if they disagree or not part of the plan organization and coordination or part of other groups?

CDN Aviator said:
You organize a protest, police it yourself. You want it to be peaceful, devote some of you efforts to keeping it that way. If you actively counter agitators, maybe the police wont have to teargas your sorry ***.


As I mention in previous posts, we have devoted efforts of keeping it peaceful as much as possible within the realm of keeping it peaceful. Actively countering agitators results in things no being peaceful.

The police would rather we do not police ourselves, as it becomes to close to becoming vigilantism.


E.R. Campbell said:
Simple: If you can't manage, if you are not capable of controlling the event, then don't start it, stay home. Write letters. See? Simple.

Meanwhile, the protest still happens.


Wonderbread said:

The problem with your questions is that you attempt to twist what I say.
 
mellian said:
The problem with your questions is that you attempt to twist what I say.

No.

The problem is that you beleive that once you organize an event ( that it would happen anyhow is irrelevant.), you are absolved from being responsible for the aftermath.

Just like most teanagers who want to play adult.
 
mellian said:
How do you take responsibility and become accountable for hundreds to thousands of people, especially if they disagree or not part of the plan organization and coordination or part of other groups?


...


The problem with your questions is that you attempt to twist what I say.

No - the problem with your ANSWERS is that you refuse to see what others are saying.

"How do you take responsibility and become accountable for hundreds to thousands of people"  - funny that, Generals have been doing that with Armies for a LONG, LONG, LONG time.  It is not a skill which cannot be learned.

It IS a skill which is singularly lacking amongst most protest "organizers".

The VERY skill you wish to have is present in those who you would blame for all the violence in the protests.  Think about that.
 
Mellian,

When you say that the protests "would happen anyways", what you are saying is "CDN Aviator, you are an idiot".

I have visited many websites of various organizations who protest this or that. Their publicity for protests they are organizing are very directive. In many cases it goes as far as suggesting slogans for signs and actions participants should do to get the message across.

To say that you are organizing something that would happen anyways is very naiive. You are telling people to be at a certain place, at a certain time to protest something specific. You are responsible for those peope who respond to this...
 
Nauticus said:
Then I ask for a second time, what is the alternative? The "few people" cannot be allowed to continue to act violently or aggressively toward property, so what is the alternative? If you do not agree with teargassing, then I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

If there is only few, do what the police does anyway, go after the few and arrest them. If the few hides among peaceful protesters, you wait them out. In Ottawa, in every major protest, police had officers on roof tops and other good vantage points filming everything and taking pictures of individuals.
 
mellian said:
If the few hides among peaceful protesters,

They not only hide amongst ,but are usualy protected by, those "peaceful" protesters. Aiding criminals is illegal in this country right ?
 
mellian said:
How do you take responsibility and become accountable for hundreds to thousands of people, especially if they disagree or not part of the plan organization and coordination or part of other groups?

If you don't want to take responsibility for the violence after your protest started, you get your people out before it's too late..  Otherwise, you are in fact part of a violent protest.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Mellian,

When you say that the protests "would happen anyways", what you are saying is "CDN Aviator, you are an idiot".

To say that you are organizing something that would happen anyways is very naiive. You are telling people to be at a certain place, at a certain time to protest something specific. You are responsible for those peope who respond to this...

What I am saying is, when you have some like G20 or G8 or SPP or any other submit large amount of people disagree with, they will still come to wherever it is and participate in a protest no matter if there is any advertising for a protest or not.

The group I was involved with, rather have a peaceful protest and we took the advantage of living in the city to organize it, and do what we can to make it peaceful. Once the plan events of the group organizes and coordinates, we pull out and most people leave until the next peacefully organized march or demonstration. Anything that happens outside of these planned and coordinated events, nothing we can really do about, and there is usually other things organized by other groups that are either locals or from elsewhere.

 
Loachman said:
Mellian and Marlborough: What precisely do you (want to) protest against, anyway?


Modern (post circa 1965) protests are a bad joke. They are, broadly, aimless and violent; they are media events, only. Policy makers and political leaders are 100% shielded and equally (100%) disinterested; but they, politicians, do, every now and again, exploit protesters by co-opting them for a brief, insincere, chat and a photo op.

I understand that one group of international officials has devised a bit of a joke equation that measures something like the population of the city where the meeting is being held divided by the number of protestors (police estimates, only) factored against the value of the property damage (measured in constant US dollars) to arrive at a national silliness quotient. The US, I’m told, is always the silliest country because everyone inflates their property damage claims and that skews the results, but the US officials revel in their success and fight hard to defend the honour.

Protests, mainly in the USA, in the 1950s and '60s for free speech, for fundamental civil rights, for basic human equality were, in part, fuelled by rage against conservative, religiously based values and against overtly, officially sanctioned racism. But in the mid ‘60s, as the boomers came of age they had nothing against which to rage. In North America, Barney Rosset et al had won the freedom of speech battles and the civil rights battles belonged to American Blacks. Those Blacks were, quickly, divided, by age. Older Black Americans, under Martin Luther King, preached and practiced non-violence; younger Blacks under people like Stokey Carmichael and others demanded a more confrontational, even violent response to institutionalized racism. The middle class white kids from the suburbs were excited by the civil rights violence but they needed a target: enter Viet Nam and Lyndon Johnson.

The rest, as they say, is history. The kids got their cause and their violence; they keep at it today, even, especially when, as with the G8 and WTO and Summit of the Americas and the G20, they are abysmally ignorant of the issues at hand. Protests, in 21st century North America, including Ottawa in 2001, are nothing more than an excuse for self indulged children to riot. They – the children - don’t know why they’re screaming but screaming, rock throwing and window smashing attract cameras (more self indulgence) and it’s Revolution For The Hell Of It.

4117690168L._SS500_.jpg


That’s it: that’s why they want to demonstrate. They are really protesting their own boring, pointless, idle lives.
 
CDN Aviator said:
They not only hide amongst ,but are usualy protected by, those "peaceful" protesters. Aiding criminals is illegal in this country right ?

So you suggest arresting hundreds or even thousands of people just because a few that committed some violent acts that hide among a crowd?

SupersonicMax said:
If you don't want to take responsibility for the violence after your protest started, you get your people out before it's too late..  Otherwise, you are in fact part of a violent protest.

So a few commits violence, and hides the among a crowd of people, and wham, everyone is automatically considered violent, hence giving enough pretense to tear gas everyone?

Then people wonder why there are anti-police sentiment.
 
If you don't want to get gased, get out when people start becoming violent.  Or better, sort the violent crowd amongst yourself and bring them out to the proper authorities.  But don't let them hide within you.  Or you WILL get gased.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top