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RCMP New Firearms Required Discussion- Split From New MP Decal Thread

I know one guy who can shoot a P226 like a SA MS gun, I view him as the exception that proves the rule.
I even find the old 225 can have its uses. It's size makes it a great choice for the folks with small hands and lack of grip strength.

It's also great in confined spaces, or on a ship/boat that is rolling and yawing in heavy seas. You won't hit the broad side of the barn if you're rolling heavy in those conditions.
 
VPD bought the 226 with the DAK trigger which is DA only. Never had a chance to fire one. I bought an ex-SQ Sig 2342, it had a trigger made to imitate a revolver and it was utterly horrible.
 
Another RFI, this time with the confirmed specifications and testing procedure.

And apparently we need to re-invent the wheel, because we've decided to do a 20,000 round testing procedure along with all kinds of other meaningless drivel. Can't just assess for which pistol meets the criteria best and take it on face value that if other Police forces/departments elsewhere are using them without issue, we can too. I guess when the first RFI said a pistol would be selected mid-December, that was a lie.

We'll probably have a new pistol around the same time other Police forces are saying stuff like "set phasers to stun".
 
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Another RFI, this time with the confirmed specifications and testing procedure.

And apparently we need to re-invent the wheel, because we've decided to do a 20,000 round testing procedure along with all kinds of other meaningless drivel. Can't just assess for which pistol meets the criteria best and take it on face value that if other Police forces/departments elsewhere are using them without issue, we can too. I guess when the first RFI said a pistol would be selected mid-December, that was a lie.

We'll probably have a new pistol around the same time other Police forces are saying stuff like "set phasers to stun".
I know I sound like a pessimist - I’m truly not…But the stupid people who sit on some committee’s, and the stupid people who seem to be in charge of everything these days, need to GOOOOO.

Then I’m optimistic that people with some common sense & practical experience can move into those vacant positions and cut down on needless red tape & redundant processes, and introduce a more results oriented culture.



Because you’re 100% right - if other agencies are using that weapon and there haven’t been any major issues identified, it’s probably safe to assume the weapon will work for its intended purposes.

Wouldn’t someone have called & got some candid user feedback from an agency thats using the pistol being considered, prior to contract being finalized?

Like if I do a quick Google search, I’d see NYPD or Nashville or Halifax (for example) had transitioned to the system we are considering. Wouldn’t I then be calling them (especially the armourers) to ask them how it’s working out for them thus far, and get the good/bad/ugly before I finalize & award a contract for thousands of them?

(I think it’s called due diligence…)


Edit - The law enforcement community as a whole would know if a particular service weapon had major issues, people talk. Now in more ways than ever.
 
I know I sound like a pessimist - I’m truly not…But the stupid people who sit on some committee’s, and the stupid people who seem to be in charge of everything these days, need to GOOOOO.

Then I’m optimistic that people with some common sense & practical experience can move into those vacant positions and cut down on needless red tape & redundant processes, and introduce a more results oriented culture.



Because you’re 100% right - if other agencies are using that weapon and there haven’t been any major issues identified, it’s probably safe to assume the weapon will work for its intended purposes.

Wouldn’t someone have called & got some candid user feedback from an agency thats using the pistol being considered, prior to contract being finalized?

Like if I do a quick Google search, I’d see NYPD or Nashville or Halifax (for example) had transitioned to the system we are considering. Wouldn’t I then be calling them (especially the armourers) to ask them how it’s working out for them thus far, and get the good/bad/ugly before I finalize & award a contract for thousands of them?

(I think it’s called due diligence…)


Edit - The law enforcement community as a whole would know if a particular service weapon had major issues, people talk. Now in more ways than ever.
Air Carrier Protection already uses the Glock without issue, as does arguably most Law Enforcement in North America. To me, the answer is simple.

But I agree with brihard, I suspect there's some institutional silliness in trying to avoid an almost inevitable lawsuit from whomever loses.
 
If you want to ensure you don’t get a gun that can’t/doesn’t meet the requirements, then lifecycle testing is the best way to ensure that.


Every credible entity does that.
 
But I agree with Brihard, I suspect there's some institutional silliness in trying to avoid an almost inevitable lawsuit from whomever loses.
Perhaps a lesson was learned from DND's attempt to buy pistols.
 
New Request for Proposals out today, lots of the same info in there not much has changed.

RFP here

I did notice under Annex E Performance Evaluation it now says Depot Firearms instructors and ERT members will not be part of the evaluation and a PSPC fairness monitor will be, so I'm starting to suspect the reason this has taken so long is people got caught playing favourites.
 
New Request for Proposals out today, lots of the same info in there not much has changed.

RFP here

I did notice under Annex E Performance Evaluation it now says Depot Firearms instructors and ERT members will not be part of the evaluation and a PSPC fairness monitor will be, so I'm starting to suspect the reason this has taken so long is people got caught playing favourites.
Wouldn’t be the first time.
 
I guess giving everyone an allowance, specifications of calibre, mag capacity, size, add ons, etc and telling them to purchase the firearm of their choice that fits their hands and shooting style is off the table? Like a BOOTFORGEN but in this case GUNFORGEN?
 
I guess giving everyone an allowance, specifications of calibre, mag capacity, size, add ons, etc and telling them to purchase the firearm of their choice that fits their hands and shooting style is off the table? Like a BOOTFORGEN but in this case GUNFORGEN?
Can you even buy a hand gun in Canada any more? If gun shops don't carry them how will RCMP offices buy them?
 
Can you even buy a hand gun in Canada any more? If gun shops don't carry them how will RCMP offices buy them?

I would fully support a GUNFORGEN exactly because it would be ridiculously unworkable. While I would feel bad for individual officers I think it is what the institution, the GoC, the politicians and the general population should have to deal with.
 
I guess giving everyone an allowance, specifications of calibre, mag capacity, size, add ons, etc and telling them to purchase the firearm of their choice that fits their hands and shooting style is off the table? Like a BOOTFORGEN but in this case GUNFORGEN?
Then Cst Snuffy’s HiPoint doesn’t function when needed…

Or goes off in the holster and injury’s him or a bystander. Or falls out of the holster not designed for it, and is attempted to be used by a criminal who can’t because it won’t function.

** I single out HiPoint as two different people tried and failed to shoot me with them.

The Agency needs to test and issue the firearm, and stand behind its choice.
 
Then Cst Snuffy’s HiPoint doesn’t function when needed…

Or goes off in the holster and injury’s him or a bystander. Or falls out of the holster not designed for it, and is attempted to be used by a criminal who can’t because it won’t function.

** I single out HiPoint as two different people tried and failed to shoot me with them.

The Agency needs to test and issue the firearm, and stand behind its choice.
They would, I think I mentioned, have to come up with an approved list that is/should be based on most common ones in use in NA (or at least Canada) - like Glock whatever frame(s), M&P (whatever frames), Springfield, CZ, TP, or whatever, decide on caliber (9mm only, 9mm or .40 or .357 Desert Eagle for all I care) and say "Hey - this is the approved list, here are the different sizes. Try and pick one each for uniform duty and plain clothes/special duty stuff and those are your sidearms now. Here's you money for initial outlay for the gun, a reflex sight, light source +/- laser." An organization as diverse as the RCMP will have a diverse set of hand sizes and body types...

Look at it like this - the NYPD, back in the 80's while they were still using .38 Specials, had a selection of brands and frames for the officers to try out in S&W and Ruger IIRC - different grip and barrel sizes and such and each baby copper got to get a feel for which would likely suit them best, then were issued one based off that selection. They could go with a one size fits all thing, but, unless the gun comes with a pile of different grips to suit the end users, a one size fits all thing will be a failure. At least Glock has a number of different frames that suit open and concealed carry and hand sizes, as does S&W, Sig, Springfield, CZ, I think even Canik TP's have compact frames too.

The Devil will lie in acquisition of course - and since common sense gets tossed out the window when it comes to anything institutional in this country regarding contracts, most people here actually working will be long retired and maybe even in PCH's before they come out with the new platform(s). Take the guess work out - talk to services in the US and Canada that have frequent use of force encounters, see what they use, find out what, if any weapon failures there were + user failures (people having issues with safeties, reloads, magazine retention, etc) and pick a few. Not really rocket science, but it, because we're Canadian, for some reason becomes a PhD thesis in mental and institutional retardation to get things to people that need them.
 
I would fully support a GUNFORGEN exactly because it would be ridiculously unworkable. While I would feel bad for individual officers I think it is what the institution, the GoC, the politicians and the general population should have to deal with.
Some US police departments allow their officers to buy the pistol of their choice that meets the department criteria in calibre, capacity and often from a pre-approved list.
 
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