Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]

[Bird_Gunner45]

Really interesting, considering my unit just got a brief from the folks that run Road to Mental Readiness, and they stated that PTSD is not an excuse for a member to not follow proper military protocol/military bearing. It does them a disservice to encourage insubordinate behavior, and slows their recovery.

The member can, and in the case of PTSD I would argue should, be provided with an assisting officer by the CO upon request by order. The AO should then be vetting the grievance letter and any correspondance to ensure that it doesn't cross the line of insubordination.

 

[OldSolduer]

Really interesting, considering my unit just got a brief from the folks that run Road to Mental Readiness, and they stated that PTSD is not an excuse for a member to not follow proper military protocol/military bearing. It does them a disservice to encourage insubordinate behavior, and slows their recovery.

And I agree with you, but we still have too many butt heads that will not acknowledge that PTSD and other mental trauma can have an effect on soldier's performance.

 

[Porch-Light.org]

Dear community,

The Scenario on our post was only given to provide context on all available ways to grieve a situation. It was not to advocate that discipline should be diminished, it was to provide a an example of the disciplinary process. In most times, admin and disciplinary action are not used together to correct a member.

The fullness of how the system can use policy to hurt a member has not been fully understood by those who are not affected by it. We hope that this article provides guidance to those who need the system to stop hurting them and their families.

You can call us anytime to discuss the matter further.

 

[George Wallace]

Dear community,

The Scenario on our post was only given to provide context on all available ways to grieve a situation. It was not to advocate that discipline should be diminished, it was to provide a an example of the disciplinary process. In most times, admin and disciplinary action are not used together to correct a member.

The fullness of how the system can use policy to hurt a member has not been fully understood by those who are not affected by it. We hope that this article provides guidance to those who need the system to stop hurting them and their families.

You can call us anytime to discuss the matter further.

Then it may be advisable that if you are going to post something, that you ensure that you do not post factually incorrect information.

 

[PuckChaser]

And I agree with you, but we still have too many butt heads that will not acknowledge that PTSD and other mental trauma can have an effect on soldier's performance.

Absolutely. A change in performance/military bearing should be an indicator and trigger a 1 on 1 to get to the root cause.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Absolutely. A change in performance/military bearing should be an indicator and trigger a 1 on 1 to get to the root cause.

When I got charged and repatriated one of the first things my higher up did was send me to mental health to make sure it wasn't related to any type of PTSD. I was told I had "unresolved grief" but that I knew what I was up to.

 

[opcougar]

Hello all,

Update to my original post a year later with new PER season. I'll like to thank you all for all the advice you gave me last time. It was very helpful indeed, and am glad I took the road less rocky, by settling for a compromise. I received my latest PER, and it was day and night compared to the last one.....I was given an immediate, with good things being said including recommendation for promotion to next rank.

I am also posted out this APS (4yrs in rank), so will have to go deal with another supervisor elsewhere who might / might not see me in the same light. A lot was digested from your responses, and I have given it a lot of thought over the months that have gone by. My short / long term goal is to get promoted to next rank before my CD.

Is LCol possible? Perhaps, but that requires someone to maintain a CBC 2nd language profile, and have to deal with a whole lot of politics.

Cheers

 

[Gunplumber]

I am looking for some specific references for a Redress of Grievance. Looked at the QR & Os but was told that the references were too generic. Looking for refs for Protected B docs being given to an employer  before member or members CoC. Refs for MO not giving paperwork after an apt and being put on a Tcat without member being aware. Thanks in advance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Wondering if you can clarify some.  Employer?  MO not giving what paperwork?

 

[Gunplumber]

Member had a short term class be that was turned into a 3 year. He got and medical and on the part 2 it was deemed that he had high blood pressure. The MO said he couldn't clear him. Member didn't get a chit at the end of the appt. Nothing was said about a Tcat. Later he found out that the MO had put him on a Tcat later that day. The CDU sent the DND employer docs saying member was on a Tcat. Members unit wasn't told and neither was the member. I heard CDU could only send limitations? He wants to redress this as now he cant get the job.

 

[MedCorps]

A T-Cat is limitations. It indicates for a temporary amount of time how the CAF can employ the member geographically (the G-factor), occupationally (the O-factor) and with respect to aircrew duties (the A-factor).  The CAF can then use the limitations with vision, hearing and colour vision evaluations to determine if the member meets the occupational specifications of their MOSID / universality of service.

The T-Cat will be re-evaluated in a set amount of time and either reverted to the members previous category, kept temporary and followed for another period of time whilst the condition evolves or a new permanent category assigned. 

A-MD-154-000/FP-000 (Canadian Armed Forces Medical Standards (CFP 154)

Notes the following in Chapter 3:

Part V - Communicating Results of Medical Fitness Assessments

    Disclosure:

        CF Mil Pers Instruction 11/04 Medical Fitness for Duty
        CANFORGEN 039/08 Disclosure of Medical/Social Work Info to Commanding Officers
        CANFORGEN 128/03 CDS Direction to the Chain of Command Regarding Medical Care Prescribed and Medical Employment Limitations Assigned by Medical Staff to CF Members
        CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-20 Disclosure of Personal Health Information
        CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-26 Unacceptable Use and Disclosure of Personal Health Information

----

If one of these were violated there may be a grievance issue... otherwise you might be pissed off, but I would suggest that you reflect if your condition is truly a grievance issue.


MC

 

[PuckChaser]

Member had a short term class be that was turned into a 3 year. He got and medical and on the part 2 it was deemed that he had high blood pressure. The MO said he couldn't clear him. Member didn't get a chit at the end of the appt. Nothing was said about a Tcat. Later he found out that the MO had put him on a Tcat later that day. The CDU sent the DND employer docs saying member was on a Tcat. Members unit wasn't told and neither was the member. I heard CDU could only send limitations? He wants to redress this as now he cant get the job.

Redressing isn't going to change that the MO couldn't clear the member due to high blood pressure. TCat or not, he wasn't getting the medical clearance to start the job.

 

[ballz]

The CDU sent the DND employer docs saying member was on a Tcat. Members unit wasn't told and neither was the member.

Are the "docs" a CF-2088?

The purpose of a CF-2088 is provide the member's unit and the member with documentation of the TCAT / PCAT that they are being put on. That' s why it goes through the unit CO and then to the member to acknowledge.

The reason this member didn't get the class b contract isn't because he's been aggrieved, the reason the member didn't get the class b contract is because they had high blood pressure that obviously made them medically unfit for the contract.

 

[PuckChaser]

The only real issue is the lack of a med chit issued at the time of the Part 2. I've always walked out the door with a med chit when I was placed/removed from TCat, that stated my new medical category (with all limitations if placed on TCat) and it stated "CF-2088 to follow". I've been removed from a TCat and fully fit for duty for 5 months before I got the CF2088 to sign through the chain of command, but just kept that chit in my pocket and with my Tp WO as confirmation I was good to go.

 

[ballz]

It would be interesting to hear from the medical side how they would even deal with high-blood pressure... I mean its one thing to fail a medical but its another to give restrictions / etc. Does everyone with high-blood pressure need medical restrictions? TCATs? Was this person's blood pressure so severely high that just having them walk out of the clinic put them at risk of a heart attack? Too many questions.

Curious though, if the member didn't leave with a chit that had MELs on it, what are the limitations listed on the TCAT?

 

[Gunplumber]

He isn't Grieving the MO putting him on a Tcat, he is grieving the fact that he was not informed nor was his CO until after the employing unit was. There was no CF-2088 given to the member.

As to the blood pressure. He is not grieving this. It is the process being redressed. The member had been doing the job for 5 months with no problems and the week before the part 2 medical completed a Force test with no problems AND with a blood pressure well under the limit of 150. The member was under a lot of stress at the time of the medical and even though this was told to the MO it did not make a difference. BTW the members BP now is 125 over 86. He knows that this cant be grieved but its a pain in the butt. He can not work till he is off the Tcat but he feels that he should not have been put on in the first place.

MedCorps,
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-20 Disclosure of Personal Health Information
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-26 Unacceptable Use and Disclosure of Personal Health Information
Is there more of a description of these somewhere?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Okay.  I understand (I think) what he is grieving.  What is the redress sought (i.e. the point of the redress, what does the mbr wish to gain thru adjudication)?

 

[Gunplumber]

Because this guy is a reservist he can no longer work till the Tcat is lifted, he has no money coming in. He now has to find a civilian doctor as he is only class A and cant get further treatment for the blood pressure. Once he finds a doctor who can clear him he is pooched.

 

[Gunplumber]

Well he knows he cant really get anything because you cant get remuneration for work not done, it is being done to get the CoC to see what is happening. You kick a guy out of a job because he has high BP because he's stressed and you add more stress and take away his money and expect his BP to go down, and don't offer any treatment? And they wonder why there are suicides.....

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think you misunderstood the question.  If the mbr redresses, he/she usually states "here is how I was aggrieved" (the act, omission, etc) .  Then, usually, the redress sought to remedy the mbr's situation ("this is what I would like to happen to correct the act/omission, etc).

A grievance should have a clear, concise, well written 'redress sought' part.  Grievances live and die around wording and clear articulation of events, supporting policy, etc and 'whether the IA/FA can actually grant redress if grievance is supported'.

This is why I am asking 'what is the redress sought', what does the mbr want.  Do they want the TCAT removed and striken from record?  The Cl B employment to be awarded to them?  6 apple pies?

Well he knows he cant really get anything because you cant get remuneration for work not done, it is being done to get the CoC to see what is happening. You kick a guy out of a job because he has high BP because he's stressed and you add more stress and take away his money and expect his BP to go down, and don't offer any treatment? And they wonder why there are suicides.....

If the mbr is just doing a grievance to show the CofC 'something wrong happened', well I think there may be a different tool in the toolbelt to do that if they are not actually seeking any redress.  That to me is like driving a nail with a screwdriver.  :2c:

Have a read through this site  --->  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-support-services-for-members-grievance/index.page

and

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-support-services-for-members-grievance/faq.page

Frequently Asked Questions

1. I have a complaint and feel that I have been aggrieved. What do I do?

If you feel you have been aggrieved by a decision, act or omission in the administration of the affairs of the CAF, you have a right to be heard. The preferred method to remedy a complaint is for a member to make a verbal complaint to their immediate supervisor or their CO. The other option is for a member to submit a "Notice of Intent to Grieve" to their CO. If the attempt to resolve the complaint informally fails, the next step is to determine whether the grievance process is the correct method for handling the complaint. For example, if the complaint concerns harassment allegations, the harassment complaint process should be used before the grievance process. If the results of the harassment investigation are not satisfactory, a grievance can be submitted regarding these results.