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Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition

Jarnhamar

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If he targeted a family on purpose he should be locked up and the key thrown away IMO. Personally I don't care what he's charged with as long as it punishes him and keeps him off the street.

It seems terrorism charges are some kind of a-ha! thing in Canada that quickly becomes a focal point. Justice can only be done if there's a terrorism charge attached.
 

CBH99

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I’m very much staying out of the politics that may be involved at some point. But a family was murdered while out for a walk, on purpose, by a stranger motivated by extreme hate.

Personally, I feel like it’s an act of terrorism.

If a Muslim man who hated White people did the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario, would that affect whether it’s viewed or prosecuted as terrorism? (Food for thought)


Regardless - this POS deserves the best the system can do. Lock him up. Such a sad and needless thing to have happened 😔
 

Remius

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I’m very much staying out of the politics that may be involved at some point. But a family was murdered while out for a walk, on purpose, by a stranger motivated by extreme hate.

Personally, I feel like it’s an act of terrorism.

If a Muslim man who hated White people did the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario, would that affect whether it’s viewed or prosecuted as terrorism? (Food for thought)


Regardless - this POS deserves the best the system can do. Lock him up. Such a sad and needless thing to have happened 😔
The issue is whenever something like this happens some of those on the right who claim the far left is far more dangerous than the far right get up in arms about how this gets labelled and those on the far left say the far right is more dangerous than the far left because both sides are entrenched in their own politics and whether they know it or not are actually taking sides. It’s freaking weird to see this sort of debate here. So many “yeah buts…” in both sides.

Your post is spot on.
 

Jarnhamar

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Personally, I feel like it’s an act of terrorism.
Me too. I'm curious what leads the police to come to this conclusion so quickly but if it fits the bill for terrorism then it's terrorism, on top of murder.
If a Muslim man who hated White people did the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario, would that affect whether it’s viewed or prosecuted as terrorism? (Food for thought)
Absolutely.
Personally, I think there's an unfair biased towards Muslims where they're still more inclined to get accused of terrorism than non-muslims. We know anyone can commit terrorism and as Altair and others pointed out right-wing extremist violence is statistically more deadly in North America in the last 20 years than Islamic violence. 100%.

I think the rush to label attacks (and the attackers), and the politiking involved, means the loss of life loses the attention it deserves.
 

Jarnhamar

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It’s freaking weird to see this sort of debate here.
For myself as someone who's probably wrong more than they're right, it's nice to be able to have opinions and those opinions challenged here without being attacked or ganged-up on.
 

Edward Campbell

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It IS an act of terrorism and, arguably, a successful one in that some media outlets say that some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public. The aim of the terrorist is to shake people's faith in their government and even in their community.

Is Nathaniel Veltman a terrorist? Not, I suspect, in the way most of us generally use that term. Was Timothy McVeigh a real terrorist or was he just a crazy man who believed in some baseless conspiracy theories about Waco and Ruby Ridge? Let's say they are/were both terrorists in the legal sense; they are/were, it appears, both "lone wolf" terrorists ~ à la Canada's own Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. What motivated them? Does Nathaniel Veltman have any core political beliefs? When I Googled him I found, near the top of the list, a Pro-Palestine/Anti-Israel/Anti-Semitic (they are three different things but they are, more often as not, often found together) source that declared the Mr Veltman is a "Zio-Nazi" which is how the author of the piece (I Googled him, too) appears to describe any Jew who supports Israel's right to exist.

I agree with Jarnhamer, "the rush to label attacks (and the attackers), and the politiking involved, means the loss of life loses the attention it deserves."
 

dimsum

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It IS an act of terrorism and, arguably, a successful one in that some media outlets say that some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public. The aim of the terrorist is to shake people's faith in their government and even in their community.

From our Dept of Justice:
In Canada, section 83.01 of the Criminal Code[1] defines terrorism as an act committed "in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" with the intention of intimidating the public "…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act."
If some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public as EC states, then that seems to fit the definition.
 

Underway

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There's really no doubt terror was involved here. The definition is broad enough.
 

mariomike

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Bruce Monkhouse

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I'm just getting pissed off at all the "we're going to do something" yakking from the pointy heads.

Whatcha' going to do to stop hatred? Kill haters? Who decides which hate we kill? Humans will hate and there is nothing you can do about it.

Some of you have been on "peacekeeping mission's" where the hatred was from a century ago......how'd that work out? Everytime someone says we're going to stomp out hate they make assholes like this guy hate even more, and gives them a platform. I wonder how many other wannabees see the coverage this guy is getting and go "hmmmm, I can have a cool terrorist tag also". Media and politicians are fanning flames for personal and financial gain using tragedies like this.

It's taking so much away from the fact that an innocent family was murdered because he's an asshole, nothing more but certainly something less.

I hope the friends and remaining family can somehow find peace. Instead they are being followed, filmed, and badgered for our sick need to know....
 

CBH99

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The philosophical discussion - which i anticipate will be quite enjoyable - should probably go in a different thread.

I agree with you Jarn. I quite enjoy stating my opinion or perspective on something, and being able to have a good discussion about it, even if I’m more wrong than right.

I LOVE IT when I can have a good, rational conversation/debate with someone knowledgeable about something and be proven completely wrong — realizing I was missing a piece of something and being forced to change my opinion on it due to someone making valid points is something I value when it happens.

The only path (for me anyway) so far in my life that has led me to be a more grounded, accepting, loving person & to grow - is when someone more knowledgeable about something uses good, rational talk to help me realize I am mistaken about something.

Discussions with people who DON’T see eye to eye, yet can exchange perspectives civilly, is way more beneficial to them both.




Early morning coffee thoughts here... but it’s interesting how on the one hand, society is very focused on doing everything possible to ‘fight racism’. Yet our own media & judicial system do use race as a factor when deciding how to report a story, or pending charges (Rightfully so if it’s relevant.)


It must be a tricky line at times, deciding when something is a hate crime & something is terrorism. Not always, but sometimes. In my mind, they overlap each other in so many ways.


Either way, he’s charged with some serious charges. In custody. Caught & ID’d. Etc etc. I haven’t prayed in a while, I’ve become quite lazy when it comes to daily, thoughtful prayer. But today I am going to, and really focus on that family.

I don’t use the word tragic very often - I find it’s overused. But this really is tragic. Poor kid who survived 😔🙏🏻
 

CBH99

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I think this thread somehow got mixed with another. Mods?

We went from talking about the family in London, Ont - then the few posts after that have been about Unions. Or is that just on my end?
 

lenaitch

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From our Dept of Justice:

If some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public as EC states, then that seems to fit the definition.

And if the evidence is there no doubt additional terrorism charges will be laid, if for no other reason that there is a compelling public policy need to condemn the actions under the appropriate light. But he is currently charged with First Degree Murder x 4 where they will have to prove his actions were deliberate, but not why. For terrorism, they have go beyond what seems to be publicly apparent and prove the why.

We can assume they have enough for the murder charges and that he wasn't just some numpty who was driving erratically while surfing his phone and jumped the curb then took off.

We didn't leap to the label when a driver from a visible minority group blew a stop sign and killed a bus load of people in Saskatchewan.
 

Altair

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And if the evidence is there no doubt additional terrorism charges will be laid, if for no other reason that there is a compelling public policy need to condemn the actions under the appropriate light. But he is currently charged with First Degree Murder x 4 where they will have to prove his actions were deliberate, but not why. For terrorism, they have go beyond what seems to be publicly apparent and prove the why.

We can assume they have enough for the murder charges and that he wasn't just some numpty who was driving erratically while surfing his phone and jumped the curb then took off.

We didn't leap to the label when a driver from a visible minority group blew a stop sign and killed a bus load of people in Saskatchewan.
Context matters.

If there was evidence that the Humboldt broncos truck driver purposely targeted people because of their religion or ethnicity, I think most would call that an act of terror as opposed to a terrible accident.

If there was evidence that this guy arrested in London was just a a careless driver who ran over this family by accident, most would chalk that up as a very sad tragedy and move on.

But the police are saying there is evidence that this family was targeted because they were Muslim and in that context, labeling it as an act of terror seems appropriate. I don't care if he gets charged with terrorism specifically, with 4 premeditated murders he likely doesn't get out of jail either way.
 

YZT580

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It could also be nothing more than "road rage" brought about by his having been denied some activity because of Covid and being unable to join with his group and then seeing this family walking down the road to/from prayer at the mosque and flipping out because they were meeting and he couldn't. Hopefully, rather than rampant speculation the evidence will point at cause and enable corrective measures before someone else pulls the same act.
 

Altair

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It could also be nothing more than "road rage" brought about by his having been denied some activity because of Covid and being unable to join with his group and then seeing this family walking down the road to/from prayer at the mosque and flipping out because they were meeting and he couldn't. Hopefully, rather than rampant speculation the evidence will point at cause and enable corrective measures before someone else pulls the same act.

The driver arrested in an alleged hate-motivated attack that killed four family members in London laughed as police took him into custody in a mall parking lot, a traumatized taxi driver who witnessed the arrest told his boss.

The cabbie was parked outside Cherryhill Village Mall on Oxford Street for a coffee break shortly before 9 p.m. Sunday when a black pickup truck entered the nearly deserted lot and parked behind him, Yellow Taxi London president Hassan Savehilaghi told The Free Press, speaking for the taxi driver.

A veteran cabbie and father of two, he asked that Savehilaghi speak on his behalf because he’s still too traumatized to speak publicly about what he witnessed.

The pickup driver was wearing what appeared to be a bullet-proof vest, a military-style helmet and clothing that perhaps had swastikas on it, Savehilaghi said he was told by the cabbie.

The pickup driver told the cabbie, who was out of his vehicle lighting a cigarette, to call police, saying he’d just killed someone.

“It was damaged with blood,” Savehilaghi said of the pickup’s front end, adding the cab driver said he thought the vehicle was involved in a hit-and-run and called 911.

John Dennett, a maintenance worker at the mall, said he also spoke with the cabbie and corroborated the details Savehilaghi provided.

While on the phone with a police dispatcher, the cabbie saw a cruiser heading est on Oxford Street and ran to flag it down.

The officer pulled into the parking lot and reinforcements quickly arrived before the arrest.

“When they got him out of the vehicle, he was laughing,” Savehilaghi said, adding the suspect asked the cabbie to record his arrest.

Road rage in a military style helmet, vest, and potentially wearing swastikas.

Laughing while being arrested.

Yeah, that sounds like a typical case of road rage to me.
 

Remius

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