Replacing the Subs

[Fishbone Jones]

Who is going to man them?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Who is going to man crew them?

There, Gender Neutralized that for you

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There, Gender Neutralized that for you

I'm 70. It’s too late.

 

[OldSolduer]

Who is going to man them?

That's a very good question. I recall the Armored guys being very happy when the first Leos were bought.
I would daresay IF the RCN and all the advertising geniuses were to tell the youth of Canada - "look at this dull tubular thing that does this" and make a cool video. Interactive things may help as well. Young people look for adventure and this might prompt many.
But only IF we can recruit them within a reasonable time frame.

 

[Kirkhill]

Who is going to man them?

In focus: CETUS the Royal Navy’s next XLUUV | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Like most XLUUV designs in development worldwide, the standard size CETUS version will fit inside a 40-foot container (FEU) which is a manageable standard size for road transportation and shipping. The standard Main Payload Space (MPS) in the centre module is 2m x 2m x 2m and there are small Secondary payload spaces in the upper fore-end and lower aft end, likely to be occupied by sensors.

World's Largest Submarine Drone Being Built In Germany - Naval News

As the last Typhoon class submarine is retired, another underwater giant is starting construction. The German MUM (Modifiable Underwater Mothership) will be the largest autonomous underwater vehicle in the world.

www.navalnews.com

German shipbuilder TKMS (Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems) is preparing to start construction of their MUM underwater drone. This drone is much larger than any known type.
Assembly of the prototype MUM (Modifiable Underwater Mothership) is expected to start in the summer. Overall length of the prototype will be around 25 Meters (82 feet).
At face value this length is arounds the same as the U.S. Navy’s Orca XLUUV (extra-large uncrewed underwater vehicle) with that design’s extended payload section included. But in the same way that the famous Russian Typhoon Class submarine was much larger than the similar-length U.S. Navy’s Ohio class submarine, the MUM is twice as wide. TKMS term this a ‘flat fish’ type design.

Navy Receives First of Six Prototype Extra Large Orca Underwater Drones - USNI News

The Navy received its first Orca Extra-Large Unmanned Undersea Vehicle (XLUUV) prototype this week. Boeing officially handed over the XLUUV Test Asset System (XLE0) to the Navy following its christening in 2022 and a series of in-water trials that began in Huntington Beach, Calif., last spring...

news.usni.org

South Korea's ASWUUV Conducts Operational Demonstration - Naval News

South Korea’s Agency for Defense Development (ADD) announced on June 30th that it successfully conducted an “operational demonstration” of the anti-submarine warfare unmanned underwater vehicle (ASWUUV) off the coast of Tongyeong, South Korea.

www.navalnews.com

....

Related -

If people aren't willing or able then somebody will find an alternative

Robot welders deployed in race to build submarine-hunting frigates on time

BAE Systems turns to machines as labour shortage threatens to delay delivery of Type 26s

www.telegraph.co.uk

Robot welders are being used to build Royal Navy submarine-hunting frigates as a shortage of steel workers threatens to delay a crucial delivery.
BAE Systems has deployed the machines to a naval shipyard in Glasgow to weld metal panels for Type 26 warships, bolstering the workforce as they race to deliver the next-generation vessels.

The robot welders will double the number of panels the company can produce at its Scottish facilities, bosses said.

It emerged as BAE confirmed it was likely to deliver the third of four initial Type 26s for the Royal Navy slightly later than hoped because of setbacks from the pandemic and a subsequent shortage of steel workers.

The delay underlines the skill shortages affecting the defence industry as Western governments push to ramp up production in the wake of the Ukraine war.

It comes amid a broader worklessness crisis across Britain that has left companies struggling to hire.

An increase in sickness claims has contributed to a jump in the number of people classed as economically inactive since the onset of the pandemic.

Glasgow has a higher than average rate of people neither in work nor looking for a job. Some 103,000 Glaswegians were economically inactive in the year to September 2023.

Sir Simon Lister, managing director of BAE’s naval ships business, said the welding robots would help to compensate for a national shortage of metalworkers, rather than replacing any of the existing 900 welders – some of whom are being retrained to operate the new machines.

The robots are made by Finnish company Pemamek.

Some folks would argue that this is just a productivity increase.

 

[quadrapiper]

Even at 2%+ we won't be able to afford SSNs AND all the other things we need.

For the effects achieved, is there a cheaper way? Betting that, for equivalent under-ice coverage and response alone, you'd be looking at enormous investments in sensor nets, personnel, and aviation to do a less effective job.

 

[Kirkhill]

For the effects achieved, is there a cheaper way? Betting that, for equivalent under-ice coverage and response alone, you'd be looking at enormous investments in sensor nets, personnel, and aviation to do a less effective job.

I'd be willing to take that bet for the price of a beer.

I think it would be an interesting exercise to compare SSNs, SS-AIPs and Shore-based - UUVs in terms of cost efficiency.

First requirement is to determine the terms of reference.

Do we just want to secure the Arctic Archipelago itself, with the Northwest Passage? Or do we want to go chasing Boomers under the ice? Or do we want to maintain a permanent patrol in the South Pacific alongside the Aussies, Brits, Yanks and French?

To my way of thinking our first priorities are the Archipelago, Dixon Channel, The Inside Passage, Juan de Fuca, The Gulf of St Lawrence.

How close did the German U-boats get to Canada?

“The closest they got to what you could call the Canadian heartland is within 172 miles of Quebec City in the St. Lawrence River,” he said. The farthest-inland U-Boat, thus, would have come roughly within sight of Baie-Comeau just as a young Brian Mulroney was taking his first steps.

Just as the differences among aircraft, UAVs and missiles are becoming vanishingly small so the differences among submarines, torpedoes and UUVs are diminishing.

Seeding the St Lawrence Seaway with self-propelled CAPTORs or even UUVs with Cruise Missiles on board (a UUV with a pair of 21" tubes housing SL-Tomahawk equivalents for example) via merchant ships in peace time....?

Is the SSN the right counter to that threat?

 

[NavyShooter]

What is the threat?

Is it a few RUS subs up north?

Or.

Is it 500+ PLAN warships in their current active fleet (according to Wiki...) with double digit new ships coming online each year?

What would be a better tool for dealing with a lot of surface ships than a bunch of Nuc Subs?

MK.48's for all!!!

 

[Kirkhill]

500 ships.

How many of them are threats?

There are approximately 500 vessels listed here that constitute the active fleet. Not included here are the various auxiliary ships that together number approximately 230.

• Aircraft carriers - 2 + (1 Fitting Out)
• Landing helicopter docks - 3
• Amphibious transport docks - 8
• Landing ship tanks - 36
• Landing ship medium - 36
• Ballistic missile submarines - 7
• Nuclear attack submarines - 9
• Conventional attack submarines - 45
• Destroyers - 49
• Frigates - 42
• Corvettes - 72
• Missile boats - 107
• Submarine chasers - 26
• Gunboats - 17
• Mine countermeasures vessels - 36
• Replenishment oilers - 16
• Auxiliaries (various) - 233*

Strategic Fleet

7x SSBN (7)


Blue Water Fleet (118)

9x SSN
2x CV
49x DD
42x FF
16x Oilers

Taiwan Threat (83)

3x LHD
8x ATD
36x LST
36x LSM

Coastal Defence (303)

45x SSK
26x Submarine Chasers
72x Corvettes
107x Missile Boats
17x Gun Boats
36x MCM

Auxilliaries (233)

233x Auxilliaries

....

I suggest that the vast majority of that fleet cannot operate effectively outside the Nine Dash Line that defines the China Seas.

Most of the "Blue Water" assets will be necessary to accompany the small amphibious fleet across the Taiwan Straits.

The threat to North America comprises

7x SSBN
9x SSN
2x CV with Escorts.

That force would be hard pressed to secure Attu.

 

[Kirkhill]

Russian Fleet

Ships and submarines in service​

(summary, 417 ships total)

• 1 Aircraft carrier
• 2 Battlecruisers
• 2 Cruisers
• 10 Destroyers
• 12 Frigates
• 82 Corvettes
• 17 Landing ship tanks
• 40 Landing craft
• 18 Special-purpose ships
• 3 Patrol ships
• 118 Patrol boats
• 47 Mine countermeasures vessels
• 12 Ballistic missile submarines
• 11 Cruise missile submarines
• 13 Nuclear attack submarines
• 21 Diesel attack submarines
• 8 Special-purpose submarines

Strategic (31)

12x SSBN
11x SSGN
8x SS(Special Purpose)

Blue Water (40)

13x SSN
1x CV
4x CG
10x DD
12x FF

Coastal Defence (346)

21x SSK
82x Corvettes
3x Patrol Ships
118x Patrol Boats
47x MCM
17x LST
40x LC
18x Special Purpose Ships.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In focus: CETUS the Royal Navy’s next XLUUV | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

World's Largest Submarine Drone Being Built In Germany - Naval News

As the last Typhoon class submarine is retired, another underwater giant is starting construction. The German MUM (Modifiable Underwater Mothership) will be the largest autonomous underwater vehicle in the world.

www.navalnews.com

Navy Receives First of Six Prototype Extra Large Orca Underwater Drones - USNI News

The Navy received its first Orca Extra-Large Unmanned Undersea Vehicle (XLUUV) prototype this week. Boeing officially handed over the XLUUV Test Asset System (XLE0) to the Navy following its christening in 2022 and a series of in-water trials that began in Huntington Beach, Calif., last spring...

news.usni.org

South Korea's ASWUUV Conducts Operational Demonstration - Naval News

South Korea’s Agency for Defense Development (ADD) announced on June 30th that it successfully conducted an “operational demonstration” of the anti-submarine warfare unmanned underwater vehicle (ASWUUV) off the coast of Tongyeong, South Korea.

www.navalnews.com

....

Related -

If people aren't willing or able then somebody will find an alternative

Robot welders deployed in race to build submarine-hunting frigates on time

BAE Systems turns to machines as labour shortage threatens to delay delivery of Type 26s

www.telegraph.co.uk

Some folks would argue that this is just a productivity increase.

So the solution to recruiting crews for sustained under ice patrolling is minisubs and drones?

 

[Kirkhill]

So the solution to recruiting crews for sustained under ice patrolling is minisubs and drones?

A possibility to be explored?

 

[Maxman1]

Who is going to man them?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In the 1990's I worked with the SFU Underwater Research Lab, supporting their student experiments with underwater autonomous UAV's. maintaining a useful datalink underwater without a umbilical is hard, even with the technological advances, transmitting video is pretty much impossible over any sort of range. Thermoclines and salt/freshwater layers also screw up transmissions.

 

[DBNSG]

That looks like a scene outside the Press Gang restaurant in Halifax.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Why nuclear submarines are a bad fit for Canada’s navy

Trudeau’s recent noncommittal musings about acquiring nuclear submarines are intended to make him seem tough on defence, but it concerns me anyone might genuinely think this is a good idea.

www.thestar.com

Another informed opinion piece. Don't ever change Tor Star.

 

[OldSolduer]

Why nuclear submarines are a bad fit for Canada’s navy

Trudeau’s recent noncommittal musings about acquiring nuclear submarines are intended to make him seem tough on defence, but it concerns me anyone might genuinely think this is a good idea.

www.thestar.com

Another informed opinion piece. Don't ever change Tor Star.

And this is one reason why Canada will never have a nuclear sub - the word "nuclear" scares the shit out of the so called "elite".

Not only that I am willing to bet the US is not willing to share nuclear secrets with us.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Why nuclear submarines are a bad fit for Canada’s navy

Trudeau’s recent noncommittal musings about acquiring nuclear submarines are intended to make him seem tough on defence, but it concerns me anyone might genuinely think this is a good idea.

www.thestar.com

Another informed opinion piece. Don't ever change Tor Star.

The author is covering so many different opinions in one article it is nonsensical.

"We need destroyers and anti-sub patrol aircraft.. but we should focus more on housing affordability, protecting Canada from forest fires, and stay away from offensive weapons that make the world more unsafe because it will provoke the hoatile actors who already are at war with us...."

Tell me you have zero knowledge on defense and security matters without telling me you have zero knowledtlge on defense and secuirty matters...

 

[Kirkhill]

A possibility to be explored?

Canadian players

Products - International Submarine Engineering

For over 40 years, we have been the marine engineering company of choice when a complex custom solution is required.

ise.bc.ca

Cellula Robotics Ltd. begins sea trials for its unmanned underwater vehicle

Trials expected to be key milestone in the development of a long-range hydrogen fuel cell-powered autonomous underwater systems.

www.offshore-mag.com

Cellula Robotics and TAS to Develop Next Generation Fuel Cell Powered XLUUV for the Royal Australian Navy – Vanguard

vanguardcanada.com

The Aussies seem more interested in Canadian solutions than we do.

....

PS I lean more towards Fuel Cells (an area in which Canada has many decades of experience) than Batteries.

Batteries or fuel cells for energy storage?

Ease of distribution, energy density and material requirements will make the difference

www.controlglobal.com

Fuel Cell & Clean Energy Solutions | Ballard Power

Ballard Power is the leading global provider of innovative clean energy fuel cell solutions that offer superior performance at a reduced operating cost.

www.ballard.com

 

[dimsum]

Why nuclear submarines are a bad fit for Canada’s navy

Trudeau’s recent noncommittal musings about acquiring nuclear submarines are intended to make him seem tough on defence, but it concerns me anyone might genuinely think this is a good idea.

www.thestar.com

Another informed opinion piece. Don't ever change Tor Star.

Taylor C. Noakes has some interesting takes on things.