Replacing the Subs

[Rainbow1910]

the NSS specifically is set up so that Seaspan is going to be the provider of AOR's for Canada forever? Irving for frigates for ever? This is without doubt the dumbest part.

NSS is set up to provide the trio of major Canadian shipbuilders all with work, an important part of this is concentrating vessels of each type in certain yards so you don’t end up in the same situation as the yards which built the Halifax class.

Davie and Seaspan are currently set up for non-combatant production and Irving is set up for combatant production, this isn’t going to change for a decade atleast given how deep the order books are.

 

[suffolkowner]

NSS is set up to provide the trio of major Canadian shipbuilders all with work, an important part of this is concentrating vessels of each type in certain yards so you don’t end up in the same situation as the yards which built the Halifax class.

Davie and Seaspan are currently set up for non-combatant production and Irving is set up for combatant production, this isn’t going to change for a decade atleast given how deep the order books are.

Im not talking about now Im talking on the bids for the next AOR the next frigates

 

[Baz]

I think the whole idea of the government looking into buying 12 new patrol submarines is nothing but rubbish <snip>

This is all for the sake of his own image in the eyes of fellow NATO countries, and to be seen to be taking defence matters seriously when it comes to election time.

I hope I'm wrong...

I don’t think you are. There are lots of things that money would help right now. Recruiting and retention… pay more. Aging and one of fleets with lack of spares… pay someone to make them. Lack of instructors… pay to hire recent retires on contract to regen. Lack of operational readiness… spend money on deployed time, bullets, beans, and go-go juice.

But instead of coughing up money to solve real problems now, instead let’s do a dance and promise we’ll spend money sometime in the future on something shiny and new. Because shiny never distracted anybody before…

 

[Underway]

the NSS specifically is set up so that Seaspan is going to be the provider of AOR's for Canada forever? Irving for frigates for ever? This is without doubt the dumbest part.

Why? Specialized skills for specialized builds. US does this, most of our NATO allies do it this way as well. Some yards become naval yards.

That being said, no risk of this for the submarines.

 

[Furniture]

So what I'm reading between the lines here is that any Corvette-type ship that is being planned for the MCDV replacement will basically be a poor ASW platform - even if equipped with a containerized towed array and UAV's - since being a "budget" platform it won't have all the expensive extras that makes the River-Class/Type 26 a good ASW platform?

I would suspect it would depend on what you wanted them to do regarding ASW.

Would the be poor hunter-killers in a shooting war? Likely. Could they keep tabs on unfriendly subs in peace time? Maybe...

 

[Underway]

I would suspect it would depend on what you wanted them to do regarding ASW.

Would the be poor hunter-killers in a shooting war? Likely. Could they keep tabs on unfriendly subs in peace time? Maybe...

See my post on the MCDV thread regarding this. Interview with Topshee on the RCNs thinking.

Just moving the convo off of the sub thread.

 

[suffolkowner]

Why? Specialized skills for specialized builds. US does this, most of our NATO allies do it this way as well. Some yards become naval yards.

That being said, no risk of this for the submarines.

i question how they control costs. We have three yards building icebreakers now. So we've already defeated our own reasoning on that account

 

[Good2Golf]

the Type 31 doesn't even have rafted diesel engines

Well that’s crap…I’ll just stop right there, then. Only thing worse would be a ship towing a barrel of monkeys with ball peen hammers…

 

[Czech_pivo]

This directly flies in the face of the National Shipbuilding Strategy alongside the fact Davie and Seaspan aren't set up to build combatants.

It’s coming up on 15yrs since the NSS was birthed, the time has come for a review and possible reset.

 

[CBH99]

It’s coming up on 15yrs since the NSS was birthed, the time has come for a review and possible reset.

Wowa mate, hold up...

Yes it's been coming up on 15 years since I've idea was born, but a lot of the work into designating which shipyards will build what ships was done within the last decade or so.

Let's get a few more hulls in the water & allow those shipbuilders to improve their processes & streamline how they do things before we go changing it all up on them

 

[AmmoTech90]

It’s coming up on 15yrs since the NSS was birthed, the time has come for a review and possible reset.

That's not how its done in Canada. Let the program wither until there is a project office that does nothing, then start a whole new program from zero, and don't shut down the old office.

 

[CBH99]

That's not how its done in Canada. Let the program wither until there is a project office that does nothing, then start a whole new program from zero, and don't shut down the old office.

I laugh, but only because it's so tragically true...

I don’t think you are. There are lots of things that money would help right now. Recruiting and retention… pay more. Aging and one of fleets with lack of spares… pay someone to make them. Lack of instructors… pay to hire recent retires on contract to regen. Lack of operational readiness… spend money on deployed time, bullets, beans, and go-go juice.

But instead of coughing up money to solve real problems now, instead let’s do a dance and promise we’ll spend money sometime in the future on something shiny and new. Because shiny never distracted anybody before…

It's easy to "look into doing something" when that something is going to happen in the 2030's and the year happens to be 2024...

But it was only a year ago (maybe even less) that we were discussing how there might not even be a submarine replacement program, and now magically the government is looking at tripling the size of the fleet? Really?

To his credit, Justin has come through on a few equipment purchases recently.

Purchasing 88 F-35's was unexpected, as was replacing the 5 Polaris with 9 MRTT's. And the announcement of the P8 procurement...

But I have a feeling those investments were made because someone south of the border grabbed him by the ear & demanded he unfuck himself or there would be diplomatic consequences.


Anyways - its 2024, and he's fully aware he's beyond hated by everybody at this point. The only way he can cling onto power at all right now is if he let's his party be taken hostage by one of the others.

He knows he isn't going to be around in the 2030's, all this talk from the government about buying 12 submarines is just pandering to other national leaders within NATO & a public that would stick him with a pitchfork if they could

 

[Maxman1]

Anyways - its 2024, and he's fully aware he's beyond hated by everybody at this point.

I'm not so sure about that. He just might be delusional enough to think otherwise.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Wowa mate, hold up...

Yes it's been coming up on 15 years since I've idea was born, but a lot of the work into designating which shipyards will build what ships was done within the last decade or so.

Let's get a few more hulls in the water & allow those shipbuilders to improve their processes & streamline how they do things before we go changing it all up on them

I understand what you're saying, but which of those 3 yards have the capacity or ability to produce the replacements to the Kingstons that Topshee was talking about? Based on current builds, none of them do. So who's going to build them if not an outside shipyard?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Not sure if this has been posted here before. Its a few years old ( June 2022) but it narrowed down the recommendation to 3 subs - 2 Japanese and 1 SK - from a field of 41 possible allied designs.

Existing Submarine Designs That Could Meet Canada’s Needs​

Existing Submarine Designs That Could Meet Canada's Needs - MW JONES & COMPANY INC

As the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project considers how to best replace the Victoria-class and deliver the military capabilities that Canada could need in this period of great-power conflict, it might find it useful to understand how well existing platforms deliver those capabilities. Canada’s...

mwjones.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I laugh, but only because it's so tragically true...


It's easy to "look into doing something" when that something is going to happen in the 2030's and the year happens to be 2024...

But it was only a year ago (maybe even less) that we were discussing how there might not even be a submarine replacement program, and now magically the government is looking at tripling the size of the fleet? Really?

To his credit, Justin has come through on a few equipment purchases recently.

Purchasing 88 F-35's was unexpected, as was replacing the 5 Polaris with 9 MRTT's. And the announcement of the P8 procurement...

But I have a feeling those investments were made because someone south of the border grabbed him by the ear & demanded he unfuck himself or there would be diplomatic consequences.


Anyways - its 2024, and he's fully aware he's beyond hated by everybody at this point. The only way he can cling onto power at all right now is if he let's his party be taken hostage by one of the others.

He knows he isn't going to be around in the 2030's, all this talk from the government about buying 12 submarines is just pandering to other national leaders within NATO & a public that would stick him with a pitchfork if they could

I don't give him much credit for the P8 or the sub. They are being strong armed into that by our allies, just like his father was. I will give full credit to the Liberals for the 9 MRTT, that is the peak of their own self generated defense buy. As for the F35, that was decided many governments ago and put off till there is no more possibility of being put off longer. That purchase is being helped by the fact that we build a good chunk of it and the unit cost has come down.

 

[KevinB]

Not sure if this has been posted here before. Its a few years old ( June 2022) but it narrowed down the recommendation to 3 subs - 2 Japanese and 1 SK - from a field of 41 possible allied designs.

Existing Submarine Designs That Could Meet Canada’s Needs​

Existing Submarine Designs That Could Meet Canada's Needs - MW JONES & COMPANY INC

As the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project considers how to best replace the Victoria-class and deliver the military capabilities that Canada could need in this period of great-power conflict, it might find it useful to understand how well existing platforms deliver those capabilities. Canada’s...

mwjones.com

I believe the Japanese have already said they cannot accommodate any foreign purchases at this point in time…

But I also believe the field has changed since the last market survey.

 

[dimsum]

Not to

I don't give him much credit for the P8 or the sub. They are being strong armed into that by our allies, just like his father was. I will give full credit to the Liberals for the 9 MRTT, that is the peak of their own self generated defense buy. As for the F35, that was decided many governments ago and put off till there is no more possibility of being put off longer. That purchase is being helped by the fact that we build a good chunk of it and the unit cost has come down.

Not to pull on too much of a tangent but the P-8 was pretty much “airplane our allies use, vs my drawing on a napkin”. The CP-140 needed to be replaced and there is only one real choice.

The F-35 though? More chance of strong-arming there.

 

[Underway]

I believe the Japanese have already said they cannot accommodate any foreign purchases at this point in time…

This is correct. They have no spare capacity but did appreciate the phone call to say we were thinking about them! Lol

Not to

Not to pull on too much of a tangent but the P-8 was pretty much “airplane our allies use, vs my drawing on a napkin”. The CP-140 needed to be replaced and there is only one real choice.

The F-35 though? More chance of strong-arming there.

I agree, strong arming is what we think because we're so used to the CAF doing bad procurement. Going through the options and choosing the best available option to replace 40yo aircraft (which is what happened), may require a paradigm shift in thinking.

Listening to a podcast not to long ago and they highlighted the CAF's recent aircraft purchases as examples of good procurement practice with little drama or concern. So we can do it! Hopefully the subs go that way.

 

[Good2Golf]

Not to pull on too much of a tangent but the P-8 was pretty much “airplane our allies use, vs my drawing on a napkin”. The CP-140 needed to be replaced and there is only one real choice.

Team Bombardier/GDMS-C would disagree heartily…however the Government could have delayed for longer and give BBD/GD more time to solidify their pitch…but Canada was told…

The F-35 though? More chance of strong-arming there.

Yup. Standby for E-7. When you see that one kick off, you’ll know Canada was told…as there actually is more of an option for non-E7 AWACS than the P-8 case.