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Replacing the Subs

Meanwhile, more money being spent upgrading the Victorias (digital periscopes):

I saw that and was trying to understand the timelines overall. It seems to say that the project ended date is 2033. I guess they are prudently covering themselves in the case of us going with the Germans.
 

Today is the formal deadline for bid submissions from Hanwha and TKMS for the CPSP.

Both companies and their respective governments have been told to expect a relatively swift decision by Prime Minister Mark Carney's government, with a selection being made as soon as late June, several sources told CBC News.

Between now and April 6, the federal government has reserved the right to ask both bidders clarifying questions about their submissions, the confidential sources added. After that the plans will be analyzed mostly through the lens of what economic benefits — both direct and indirect investment — can be brought to Canada.

The navy has already said both the South Korean KS-III and the German Type 212CD designs will deliver the capability it needs.

The South Koreans are promising to deliver four submarines by 2035, the year the navy plans to begin retiring its current fleet. The Germans have said publicly they can deliver a boat by 2032 with a steady ramping up of production afterwards.

Hanwha Ocean submitted its bid late last week, ahead of the deadline. The South Korean government and the conglomerate of Hyundai companies have been pitching to help Canada establish hydrogen fuel-cell facilities and corridors that could support railways or heavy-duty trucks, and potential automotive plant investment by Hyundai.
 
CTV calling it - no new auto plants from either SK or Germany as part of their sub bids -


No new auto plants but here’s what else Germany and South Korea are offering in their submarine bids​


Tens of billions of dollars in economic incentives are attached to the bids, but according to both German and Korean sources, neither proposal will contain an offer to build a car assembly plant in Canada, despite diplomatic pressure from Industry Minister Melanie Joly to attach autos to a sub deal.
 
CTV calling it - no new auto plants from either SK or Germany as part of their sub bids -


No new auto plants but here’s what else Germany and South Korea are offering in their submarine bids​


Tens of billions of dollars in economic incentives are attached to the bids, but according to both German and Korean sources, neither proposal will contain an offer to build a car assembly plant in Canada, despite diplomatic pressure from Industry Minister Melanie Joly to attach autos to a sub deal.

From the article:

The federal government’s evaluation criteria are divided into four sections:

  • Submarine platform, weighted 20 per cent
  • Sustainment, weighted 50 per cent
  • Financial, weighted 15 per cent
  • Strategic and Economic Partnerships, weighted 15 per cent

The huge weight put towards sustainment really shows how important the overall bid is, more so than the submarine, the financials, partnerships or anything else present.
 
From the article:



The huge weight put towards sustainment really shows how important the overall bid is, more so than the submarine, the financials, partnerships or anything else present.
With the SK's pivoting to nuc boats going forward, does this impact their long term ability in sustainment?
 
With the SK's pivoting to nuc boats going forward, does this impact their long term ability in sustainment?
I would point out a few things:

1.) South Korea has a recent history of failed or heavily delayed naval projects, see their aircraft carrier and arsenal ship ambitions. Nuclear submarines are not easy or cheap to produce, don't be surprised if this entire endeavor falls apart or is heavily delayed.

2.) Korea has a significant conventional submarine fleet that it will be retaining for the foreseeable future, including a number of the exact same submarines Canada will be operating potentially.

3.) The Koreans will be contractually obligated to build and maintain this sustainment capability in Canada as part of their bid.
 
I would point out a few things:

1.) South Korea has a recent history of failed or heavily delayed naval projects, see their aircraft carrier and arsenal ship ambitions. Nuclear submarines are not easy or cheap to produce, don't be surprised if this entire endeavor falls apart or is heavily delayed.
Doesn't Germany have (had) similar issues with Frigates and/or Subs?
2.) Korea has a significant conventional submarine fleet that it will be retaining for the foreseeable future, including a number of the exact same submarines Canada will be operating potentially.
Which is a good thing in terms of continuing sustainability.
3.) The Koreans will be contractually obligated to build and maintain this sustainment capability in Canada as part of their bid.
Yes, as will the Germans.

So, it sounds like the SK's trying to move over to Nuc boats will not have a negative impact on their ability to maintain sustainability of our subs if we were to go with them.
 
If Canada buys the KSS-III, then it's likley other countries will also consider it


India has shown interest in South Korean submarine technology, specifically looking at Hanwha Ocean’s KSS-III class submarines for its Project-75I (India), which seeks to build six advanced conventional submarines with Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP).
Here are the key details based on the current situation:

  • South Korean Offer: Hanwha Ocean (formerly DSME) is pitching a 3000-ton variant of its KSS-III submarine, aiming to provide advanced technology and, in some proposals, considering full technology transfer.
  • The Context (Project-75I): India is looking for conventional (diesel-electric) submarines with AIP to enhance underwater endurance. While India is simultaneously moving toward building more French-designed Scorpene-class submarines, the Project-75I tender has drawn interest from South Korea and Germany.
  • Strategic Partnership: South Korean firms are highly active in the Indian defense sector, riding on the success of the K9 Vajra self-propelled guns. They are treating the potential submarine deal as a significant opportunity for deeper bilateral defense-industrial cooperation.
  • Challenges: There have been reports of past tensions regarding attempts to acquire South Korean AIP technology, and competition for the Indian contract is fierce, with Germany's TKMS also in the running.
  • Wider Scope: Beyond just purchasing, the partnership is focused on local manufacturing, with South Korean companies looking to utilize Indian shipyards, similar to their collaboration with Cochin Shipyard Limited.
    Reddit +7
As of late 2025/early 2026, South Korea is considered a top contender for India's next-generation submarine needs, with both nations strengthening their maritime defense ties.
 
CTV calling it - no new auto plants from either SK or Germany as part of their sub bids -


No new auto plants but here’s what else Germany and South Korea are offering in their submarine bids​


Tens of billions of dollars in economic incentives are attached to the bids, but according to both German and Korean sources, neither proposal will contain an offer to build a car assembly plant in Canada, despite diplomatic pressure from Industry Minister Melanie Joly to attach autos to a sub deal.
A second and more concerning take is that after 4 subs, we are going to Canadianize the hell out of them and boondoggle the cost so high that 12 becomes significantly less.

“Previously Hanwha officials have said that each submarine will cost approximately $2 billion to build, but now the head of its Canadian subsidiary is indicating the cost could go up with the addition of Canadian components after the first four submarines are delivered.

“I think there’s an expectation that localization does come with a cost,” said Hanwha Canada CEO Glen Copeland in an interview last week, shortly after the company submitted its RFP. “But we’ve kept at a reasonable level for Canada that they will understand.”

Copeland did not provide new cost estimates. At this point TKMS has also not provided a cost estimate
.”
 
A second and more concerning take is that after 4 subs, we are going to Canadianize the hell out of them and boondoggle the cost so high that 12 becomes significantly less.

“Previously Hanwha officials have said that each submarine will cost approximately $2 billion to build, but now the head of its Canadian subsidiary is indicating the cost could go up with the addition of Canadian components after the first four submarines are delivered.

“I think there’s an expectation that localization does come with a cost,” said Hanwha Canada CEO Glen Copeland in an interview last week, shortly after the company submitted its RFP. “But we’ve kept at a reasonable level for Canada that they will understand.”

Copeland did not provide new cost estimates. At this point TKMS has also not provided a cost estimate
.”
Canadian built components to Korean specifications, that has been known for sometime as its been talked about for items such as lithium ion batteries which may be built in Canada.
 
A second and more concerning take is that after 4 subs, we are going to Canadianize the hell out of them and boondoggle the cost so high that 12 becomes significantly less.

“Previously Hanwha officials have said that each submarine will cost approximately $2 billion to build, but now the head of its Canadian subsidiary is indicating the cost could go up with the addition of Canadian components after the first four submarines are delivered.

“I think there’s an expectation that localization does come with a cost,” said Hanwha Canada CEO Glen Copeland in an interview last week, shortly after the company submitted its RFP. “But we’ve kept at a reasonable level for Canada that they will understand.”

Copeland did not provide new cost estimates. At this point TKMS has also not provided a cost estimate
.”
Some of the 'canadianization' will be related to comments that Topshee made about 2-3 weeks ago about 'under ice' needs. That the subs would be delivered first and then that additional requirement/equipment would be added at a later date.
 
Canadian built components to Korean specifications, that has been known for sometime as it’s been talked about for items such as lithium ion batteries which may be built in Canada.
Still going to wickedly drive up the cost. You just watch how masterfully this thing will grow in cost when Canadian defence companies get involved, just like the destroyer.
 
Still going to wickedly drive up the cost. You just watch how masterfully this thing will grow in cost when Canadian defence companies get involved, just like the destroyer.
Onshoring capabilities to maintain the submarines in the long term is more important than pure cost, batteries are a great example. They wear down over time and being able to repair and manufacture our own Korean spec types at home lets us refit and repair the boats without outsized foreign influence going forward. Hence why it was also specified that after the first four boats too, so we get the capability back before we start doing this.
 

Ottawa weighs splitting submarine contract between Europe and South Korea, sources say​

Robert FifeOttawa Bureau Chief
Ottawa
Published 43 minutes ago

Canada is considering splitting a multibillion-dollar contract for 12 new submarines by buying an equal number from Europe and South Korea as Ottawa rearms to confront the challenges of a more dangerous world, two senior government sources say.

Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, in partnership with the government of Norway, and Seoul-based Hanwha Ocean are short-listed for the contract that could cost Canada upward of $24-billion.

Final proposals for the contract to build 12 diesel-electric submarines were submitted to the federal government on Monday. A decision is expected to be rendered by April 4 at the earliest.

The new modern fleet of submarines would replace the Royal Canadian Navy’s current aging fleet of secondhand Victoria-class boats.

German submarine maker partners with AI firm Cohere in bid to build next Canadian fleet

The senior government sources say Ottawa is looking at buying six Type-212CD submarines to be built by Germany’s TKMS. Those submarines would patrol the Atlantic Coast, the sources said. Ottawa would also acquire six Hanwha KSS-III Batch-II submarines. The sources say those submarines would be located on the Pacific coast and could be deployed to the Indo-Pacific region.

The Globe and Mail is not identifying the two government sources who were not authorized to discuss details of the competition.

Part of Hanwha’s pitch is that some of its submarines are already built and in the water. Additional submarines are currently being constructed. The TKMS submarines are not yet in the water, although construction has started.

Hanwha said it could deliver the first boat by 2032 and four additional boats by 2035. TKMS has said the company could deliver its first submarine well in advance of 2035.

Defence experts have raised concerns that splitting Ottawa’s submarine contract could complicate supply chains and parts inventories. In September, Prime Minister Mark Carney also raised doubts about a mixed fleet, saying you get “many efficiencies in economies of having one fleet.”

The two government sources said Ottawa will assess the bids, including whether to split the contract, on what best serves the country’s economic and military needs.

A final decision involves more than just acquiring new submarines. Mr. Carney is looking for greater trade and economic ties with Europe and Asia as a way to reduce reliance on the United States.

The sources say the benefit of splitting the contract is that Canada would reap industrial benefits from both bidders, including possible investments in this country’s auto industry. Canada’s auto sector has been hit hard by U.S. President Donald Trump’s tariffs, as has the country’s steel and aluminum industries.

Both Hanwha and Germany’s TKMS are trying to make their proposals more attractive by increasing their commitments to benefit Canada, including local jobs and manufacturing and supply contracts.

Canada’s submarine choice could break tradition, embrace South Korea in Indo-Pacific shift

Ottawa has asked the governments of South Korea and Germany to make auto industry production pledges in Canada as part of their pitches.

During a visit to Ottawa last month, Germany’s Minister of Economic Affairs, Katherina Reiche, said her country’s auto industry is keen on expanding its presence in Canada and is in the midst of discussions about doing so.

Volkswagen has already committed to building an electric-vehicle battery factory in St. Thomas, Ont., through its PowerCo subsidiary.

Ms. Reiche said the German auto industry interest is independent of Berlin’s joint bid with Norway to supply Canada with submarines. But the minister acknowledged that Berlin has been talking to its auto industry.

South Korean submarine maker Hanwha signs agreement with Algoma Steel

In January, Hyundai Motor Group executive chair Chung Euisun visited Ottawa at the same time as a high-level South Korean government delegation. The South Koreans signed a memorandum of understanding intended to bring the country’s auto-sector manufacturing and investment to Canada.

The non-binding MOU pledges both sides to working together to promote the manufacturing of autos, electric vehicles, batteries and hydrogen-powered vehicles.

Germany and Norway are also making the case that they are NATO members and their submarines would be interoperational. South Korea, which is a global powerhouse in shipbuilding, is hoping to expand into submarine manufacturing. Winning even a partial Canadian submarine contract would be a strategic turning point for Seoul’s efforts to become a major player in the arms market.
 
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