Reserve Pension- Merged

[dapaterson]

CANFORGEN 002/06 ADM(HR-MIL) 107 041938Z JAN 06
CF (RESERVE) PENSION IMPLEMENTATION DELAY - INTERIM DIRECTION
UNCLASSIFIED

REF: CANFORGEN 176/05

1. REF ANNOUNCED A FURTHER DELAY IN PENSION MODERNIZATION IMPLEMENTATION (COMING INTO FORCE (CIF)) UNTIL MAR 07. THIS MSG PROVIDES INTERIM GUIDANCE TO ASSIST CF MEMBERS THROUGH THIS UNEXPECTED FURTHER DELAY OF THE CIF OF THE NEW CF PENSION

2. CF MEMBERS WISHING TO BE SUBJECT TO NEW PENSION ARRANGEMENTS MUST BE MEMBERS OF THE CF ON THE DAY OF CIF. RECOGNIZING THAT MANY CF MEMBERS OF THE RESERVE WILL THROUGH THE NORMAL CHAIN OF EVENTS WISH TO RETIRE OR LEAVE FULL OR PART TIME SERVICE IN THE PERIOD 1 JAN 06 TO MAR 07, A MECHANISM TO ALLOW FOR RETENTION IN THE CF UNTIL CIF HAS BEEN DEVELOPED. ALL MEMBERS WILL BE ALLOWED TO TRANSFER TO THE SUPPLEMENTARY RESERVE (SUPP RES) REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELEASE ITEM FROM 1 JAN 06 UNTIL CIF OF THE NEW PENSION

3. THE DEVELOPMENT OF NECESSARY ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES TO FACILITATE PENSION ACCESS RELATED TO THE EXCEPTIONAL TRANSFER TO THE SUPP RES INVOLVES SEVERAL ORGANIZATIONS AND THE COORDINATION OF MANY POLICY INSTRUMENTS AND AUTHORITIES. DETAILED GUIDANCE IS EXPECTED EARLY IN 2006

4. UNTIL THE GUIDANCE IS PROMULGATED IN THE INTEREST OF ENSURING THAT MEMBERS CONSIDERING RELEASE OR ACTUALLY BEING RELEASED MAKE INFORMED DECISIONS REGARDING RELEASE FROM THE CF AND THEIR FUTURE ACCESS TO THE CF PENSION, COS AND RELEASE CLERKS SHALL IMPLEMENT THE FOLLOWING INTERIM MEASURES IMMEDIATELY:


A. PRIOR TO ACTIONING RELEASES:

(1) ENSURE MEMBERS CONSIDERING RELEASE OR BEING RELEASED FROM THE CF AFTER 31 DEC 05 ARE PROVIDED A COPY OF THE REF MSG,

(2) DIRECT MEMBERS TO SEEK INFORMATION CONCERNING THE CF PENSION AND ACCESS THROUGH THE DIRECTOR ACCOUNTS PROCESSING, PAY AND PENSIONS - PENSION SERVICES AT 1-800-267-0325, AND

(3) ENSURE MEMBERS HAVE NECESSARY INFORMATION CONCERNING TRANSFER TO THE SUPP RES BY CALLING THE DIRECTOR MILITARY HUMAN RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS AT 1-866-558-3566

 

[Rifleman62]

How can you make "INFORMED DECISIONS REGARDING RELEASE FROM THE CF AND THEIR FUTURE ACCESS TO THE CF PENSION", if you do not have access to how much it will cost to buy back and how many years of paid service you actually have. How do you plan for the future? How do you make a decision?The best 5 years is not a problem. I have my income tax since mid 70's, and some of my Cl B time prior to that, but almost none of my Cl A.  My request to the archives for pay records back to 1962, that I made 2 months ago, is being worked on, but a someone else I know with 33 years in did not get any info back from his request other tan recent records.
There is more at stake here. if you receive a pension from any one of the Federal pensions, you are entitled to participate in the Public Service retired members medical and dental plans at a very reasonable monthly cost. No  pension, no entitlement to these two plans.
Do we Reservists put our life on hold till Mar 07 (probably be delayed again, based on their track record) until the CIF date. Yes I have RRSPs, but does everyone, and have they been fortunate to max them out over the years.  I am not a financial planner, but a pension with a guaranteed amount would be better than RRSP investments ( which have to been converted to a RIF, etc at age 69 )based on the stock market. Its the principal of the issue.
"THE DEVELOPMENT OF NECESSARY ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES TO FACILITATE PENSION ACCESS RELATED TO THE EXCEPTIONAL TRANSFER TO THE SUPP RES INVOLVES SEVERAL ORGANIZATIONS AND THE COORDINATION OF MANY POLICY INSTRUMENTS AND AUTHORITIES. DETAILED GUIDANCE IS EXPECTED EARLY IN 2006" is more wasted effort, better utilized to implement the CIF date. Note the words SEVERAL and MANY. How long is this going to take? Treasury Board will be involved. More delays.
Give this program to Great West Life. ADM (HR Mil ) has proven they cannot deliver. Wait another 14/15 + months for them to do it?  Just great. What a mess. These people would bankrupt a business on civie street.

 

[dapaterson]

I have a simple solution to speed up the process.  All it takes is a simple motion to be passed by Parliament:


WHEREAS
Her Majesty did authorise the creation of pension plans for members of the Reserve Force of the Canadian Armed Forces, with the granting of Royal Assent to Bill C-78 on September 14th, 1999, and

WHEREAS
The Department of National Defence has failed to implement pension plans for members of the Reserve Force, and

WHEREAS
This failure constitutes blatant contempt for Parliament on the part of said Department,


BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED THAT

1.  This be cited as the "Reserve Force Pension Implementation Act"

2.  Until such time as part I.1 for the CFSA comes into force and a minimum of 80% of eligible Reserve Force members are enrolled in the CFSA, the following provisions shall hold:

A.  All Captains(N), Colonels, Flag and General Officers of the Canadian Armed Forces are deemed to have not achieved their performance goals and are therefore ineligible for any performance pay;

B.  All civilian employees of the Department of National Defence who may be eligible for performance pay are deemed to have not achieved their performance goals and are therefore ineligible for any performance pay;

C.  For the purposes of determining any payments under the CFSA and PSSA, from January 1st 2006 onwards the annual pensionable earnings of all persons referred to in sections 2A and 2B above are deemed to be one dollar.

3.  The terms under section 2 shall not be lifted until an independent arbitrator validates the achievement of the target of 80% enrolment in the CFSA.


Thus, no performance pay, and reduction of the value of the "best years" for pension purposes of the senior management of DND and the CF until the situation is mostly resolved.

Somehow, I suspect that were such a motion passed, the implementation might be just a little faster...


(The opinion expressed herein are my own, and not necessarily those of the Department of National Defence, the Canadian Armed Forces, Army.ca, or The Possum Lodge)

 

[Rifleman62]

As I have stated previously, is that the CF Reserves remains the only component of the Federal Government that is without access to a pension.

Bill C-55  "An Act To Amend Certain Acts In Relation To Pensions And To Enact The Special Pension Retirement Arrangements Act And The Pensions Benefits Act " was enacted June 1994, and received Royal Assent in Dec 1995. Upon passing in the House, this Act amended the PSSA to allow contributions by part time employees. Some of the criteria was; prorated pension according to amount worked; required to work a minimum average of 12 hours per week; contains a grandfather clause; allows purchase of previous pensionable service; and covered by the Supplementary Death Benefits Plan.

This Bill directed that part time employees of the Federal Government be provided access to a pension plan. However Bill C-55 FAILED to recognize Reservists specifically as part time employees of the Federal Government.  WHY? Was everone asleep in all the different Command HQ's and NDHQ?  Did they not realize that a whole lot of civilian employees who were working for/along side of the Reg F pers, and probably some Cl B pers, were now going to get a pension? The span of writting a Bill, committee work, introduction in the House takes a long time. Just from enactment to Royal Assent took almost 6 months for this fast tracked Bill.

Section 15 of the Pensions Benefits Standards Act (PBSA) addresses the issue of pension access by part time employees of the Federal government. It states that those employees who receive 35% of the years Maximum pensionable Earnings (YMPE, as in the CPP) or those who have fulfilled a reasonable equivalent alternative requirement, must be offered membership in the employer's pension plan for full time employees or be offered membership to a reasonable comparable pension plan.

The idea of a Reserve Pension is not new. In 1985 the Pay Study Team Report recommended that DND approve a Reserve Pension. In 1989, the Mercer Report recommended that there was a need for two distinct pension plans which would cater to either traditional Cl A service, and second to adequately address Reservists on full time Cl  B or C service. The 1994 White Paper, and confirmed by the Minister of National Defence in 1996, stated the importance of the Reserves as a partner in the Total Force structure, with the important role of providing augmentation and sustainment to the Reg F. It also recognized changing career paths ( same as the points in the CFPMP - portability).

A Reserve pension was subject to recommendations  # 32, 34, and 40 of the SCRR in 1996;  the top priority of the Director General Reserves and Cadets since the announcement of the Reserves Get well Program of Dec 1997; and the SCONDVA Report of Oct 1998 ( accepted in principal by DND) stated the specific recommendation that " DND pursue initiatives to put in place a real pension plan for the Reserve".

On 14 Sep 1999 Bill C-78 ( pension reform legislation),received Royal Assent.  The Act introduced significant amendments to the CFSA which included the flexibility to create a pension plan for the Reserves through REGULATIONS. On 7 Nov 2003, Bill C-37, " An Act To Amend The CF Superannuation Act' received Royal Assent. ( Note that you never see Bill C-78 on the CFPMP website!!)

Herein is the problem. With Bill C-78 a Reserve pension could have been introduced through REGULATIONS.  Somewhere and someone made the final decision to throw the Reserve pension issue into the new CFPMP, which needed Bill C-37 to be enacted.  HOW MUCH WORK WAS DONE ON THE RESERVE PENSION FROM SEP 1999 UNTIL THE DECISION TO THROW IT INTO THE CFPMP????? My guess is very little in that 4 year period until Bill C-37 was passed. Now we are in the total mess of CFPMP implementation( the closest we are going to get to Total Force in the Army). We could have possibly had a Reserve pension prior to the CFPMP if there was a commitment.

In a Memo I have as part of the disclosure of my redress it states " The establishment of a pension plan for a large and diverse work force such as the Reserve Force is a complex issue with many legal and technical implications. The Department is therefore currently in the process of engaging the services of an expert pension consulting firm who will carry out a multi phase project related to the establishment of a Reserve Force plan". This memo is from DPSP and is dated 11 Feb 00. Does the phrase (excuse) "complex issue with many legal and technical implications" sound familiar? Apparently this was known 6 years ago, so what progress has been made? As far as the consulting firm goes. Mercer did the cross country focus groups.

Well this is some of the info that will be in my letter of complaint, which I will post for those who my want to use some of the info for their purposes.  As far as I am concerned. the law states the Reserves are to have a pension, and DND is breaking the law. Try and sue them. They have the bottomless pockets of all of us taxpayers to fight we taxpayers.

Talk about leadership ethics.

 

[dapaterson]

Armed Forces Council 2/2001 issued the following direction on the pension plan:

8. ITEM 9 - PENSION PLAN FOR THE RESERVE. AFC AGREED WITH THE INTENT TO MODERNISE THE CANADIAN FORCES PENSION PLAN TO ACCOMMODATE BOTH FULL AND PART-TIME SERVICE PROVIDED IT CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT INCURRING ADDITIONAL DELAYS

It would appear that this direction has not been fully followed...

 

[muffin]

Received this about 10 min ago....

CANFORGEN 002/06 ADM(HR-MIL) 107 041938Z JAN 06
CF (RESERVE) PENSION IMPLEMENTATION DELAY - INTERIM DIRECTION
UNCLASSIFIED
REF: CANFORGEN 176/05
1. REF ANNOUNCED A FURTHER DELAY IN PENSION MODERNIZATION IMPLEMENTATION (COMING INTO FORCE
(CIF)) UNTIL MAR 07. THIS MSG PROVIDES INTERIM GUIDANCE TO ASSIST CF MEMBERS THROUGH THIS
UNEXPECTED FURTHER DELAY OF THE CIF OF THE NEW CF PENSION
2. CF MEMBERS WISHING TO BE SUBJECT TO NEW PENSION ARRANGEMENTS MUST BE MEMBERS OF THE CF ON
THE DAY OF CIF. RECOGNIZING THAT MANY CF MEMBERS OF THE RESERVE WILL THROUGH THE NORMAL
CHAIN OF EVENTS WISH TO RETIRE OR LEAVE FULL OR PART TIME SERVICE IN THE PERIOD 1 JAN 06 TO
MAR 07, A MECHANISM TO ALLOW FOR RETENTION IN THE CF UNTIL CIF HAS BEEN DEVELOPED. ALL
MEMBERS WILL BE ALLOWED TO TRANSFER TO THE SUPPLEMENTARY RESERVE (SUPP RES) REGARDLESS
OF THEIR RELEASE ITEM FROM 1 JAN 06 UNTIL CIF OF THE NEW PENSION
3. THE DEVELOPMENT OF NECESSARY ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES TO FACILITATE PENSION ACCESS
RELATED TO THE EXCEPTIONAL TRANSFER TO THE SUPP RES INVOLVES SEVERAL ORGANIZATIONS AND
THE COORDINATION OF MANY POLICY INSTRUMENTS AND AUTHORITIES. DETAILED GUIDANCE IS EXPECTED
EARLY IN 2006
4. UNTIL THE GUIDANCE IS PROMULGATED IN THE INTEREST OF ENSURING THAT MEMBERS CONSIDERING
RELEASE OR ACTUALLY BEING RELEASED MAKE INFORMED DECISIONS REGARDING RELEASE FROM THE CF
AND THEIR FUTURE ACCESS TO THE CF PENSION, COS AND RELEASE CLERKS SHALL IMPLEMENT THE
FOLLOWING INTERIM MEASURES IMMEDIATELY:
A. PRIOR TO ACTIONING RELEASES: 

(1) ENSURE MEMBERS CONSIDERING RELEASE OR BEING RELEASED FROM THE CF AFTER 31 DEC
05 ARE PROVIDED A COPY OF THE REF MSG, 

(2) DIRECT MEMBERS TO SEEK INFORMATION CONCERNING THE CF PENSION AND ACCESS
THROUGH THE DIRECTOR ACCOUNTS PROCESSING, PAY AND PENSIONS - PENSION SERVICES AT
1-800-267-0325, AND 

(3) ENSURE MEMBERS HAVE NECESSARY INFORMATION CONCERNING TRANSFER TO THE SUPP
RES BY CALLING THE DIRECTOR MILITARY HUMAN RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS AT 1-866-558-3566

 

[Long in the tooth]

I've heard that 24 people have been hired in order to process pensionable service etc.  Hardly seems enough for the hundred thousand or so cases they'll have to review.

I suggest everyone getting their ducks in a row.  I have 10 years reserve and am in 20th of regf and just did a pension estimate at releases.  Surprise!  PFTPS differed from my 1007, 1112, CFSA 100 and CFSA 300 (for parental) as well as PRR.  After confirmation by pensions in Ottawa I pretty well got what I expected (a full year less than I wanted).  Cl B/C service less than 90 days does not count 1 for 1, but as class A 1 for 4.  All those years that I did 60 day callouts back to back counted as NADA.

Be prepared for an expensive plan in any case.  By the time of my retirement I will have contributed about $80,000 towards my pension.

 

[Rifleman62]

The CFPMP is supposed to change the current CFSA regs that state all fulltime under 90 days only counts as quarter time. That regulation was always a ripoff as most Reservists would probably be on course/employment for a max of 60 days during the summer, and "they" knew it. Years back, when we were asked to comment on changes to the CFSA for Bill C -78, this was number one. We recommended one for one. I know we were not the only formation to recommmend this. To the best of my knowledge, it is still current ( I could not find the amendment in the CFSA) but supposed to change. If you just bought back, you are being ripped, which is hardly supprising.

What the formula is for buy back for the Reserve pension is not known. From a good source it is supposed to be one for one for all Cl B and Cl C service and 1.4 days for each over 6 hours days. ( There is a reason for this)

 

[geo]

62,
my 1st RSM was involved with studies on pension plans at that time (70s) so there is nothing new. Pension plan being accepted by the CF is thanks to the Public Service Alliance's getting a pension for their Part timers & treasury board instructing CF to get with the times and FIX the problem...
To date, it just hasn't been given much of a priority.

WOG
there won't be hundreds of thousands of individual pension cases for reviews - anyone who left the CF before Jan 1st of this year don't qualify. Anyone who releases and does not apply for Supp List between now and Mar 07 don't qualify...
Truth be told = there isn't a large number of reservists who will require detailed attention BUT those that are there will be lots of fun to figure out.

 

[Haggis]

Armed Forces Council 2/2001 issued the following direction on the pension plan:

8. ITEM 9 - PENSION PLAN FOR THE RESERVE. AFC AGREED WITH THE INTENT TO MODERNISE THE CANADIAN FORCES PENSION PLAN TO ACCOMMODATE BOTH FULL AND PART-TIME SERVICE PROVIDED IT CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT INCURRING ADDITIONAL DELAYS

It is clearly NOT possible to implement without incurring addtional delays.  Therefore, the concept of a Reserve pension should be scrapped and the money and PYs put towards more pressing requirements.

Reservists are Part time employees.  (Even CRA treats the CF members on Reserve Class A and B service as deemed to be employed by a separate employer than those in the Reg F and Class C.)  Class A 'part-time', or in the case of Class B/C 'casual contract' or 'term' employees are generally not part of the employer's pension plan.

If you're a Reservist who wants a pension, take out an RSP.  It's guaranteed.  Nobody at Clarica or London Life is gonna promise and lie to you for thirty years that it's gonna be set up eventually and it's gonna be there when you retire. 

Trust us.  We're the government.

 

[a23trucker]

Class A 'part-time', or in the case of Class B/C 'casual contract' or 'term' employees are generally not part of the employer's pension plan.

The reserves are the only part time federal employees that are not part of the employers pension plan.....thats the whole reason that the pension reform is going forward.

Like most others, I joined to serve, thats enough; however if others are entitled why shouldn't we persue it?

AM

 

[Bin-Rat]

  Cl B/C service less than 90 days does not count 1 for 1, but as class A 1 for 4.  All those years that I did 60 day callouts back to back counted as NADA.

Ya, I seen that as well, but after some more digging, I found this which makes ya wonder... This is for Component transfer from reserves to reg force..

website address of the part i am gonna quote... http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5002/3_e.asp

Now half way down the page it states this....

# Reserve Service is counted as pensionable service for purposes of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act as follows:

    * 100% of Class B and C Reserve Service; and

    * 25% of Class A Reserve Service; and

now to me 100% would be day for day.. So looks like a contridiction somewhere.... Oh well something else to try and figure out......

 

[geo]

Bin Rat... what you're quoting refers to the rules that have been applied to all reservists who transfer to the Reg Force and are given an oportunity to buy back their time. With respect to the new Pension Act and 1.1 for Reservists, it all goes back to how much you earned in any given year, what was 4% (or 5 or 6%) of earnings at that time and how much is it worth today (incl coumpounded interest).

Haggis,
If the federal gov't has chosen to give the Public Service part time employees a pension (per contract negociations with PSA & RCMP) then it might be logical for them to think that the "other" part time employees of the Federal Gov't are also entitled to a pension plan... RRSP contributions notwithstanding. (also - the Pension $ is supposed to come from the Treasury board - not initialy funded from CF budget).

The only reason that the pension isn't up and running at this very moment is that the CF has not put enough of a priority on it (hired the necessary qualified & competent persons / company required to do the job right 1st time round).

 

[Haggis]

Haggis,
If the federal gov't has chosen to give the Public Service part time employees a pension (per contract negociations with PSA & RCMP) then it might be logical for them to think that the "other" part time employees of the Federal Gov't are also entitled to a pension plan... RRSP contributions notwithstanding.

Class A reservists are equal to casual employees.  No pension plan.  Class B under 180 days are equal to term employees.  No pension plan.

(also - the Pension $ is supposed to come from the Treasury board - not initialy funded from CF budget).

I note your use of the words "supposed to".  Where do you think TBS is going to find that money?

The only reason that the pension isn't up and running at this very moment is that the CF has not put enough of a priority on it .

And this has been talked about since before CADPAT.

 

[geo]

Haggis...
Treasury board "ordered" DND to get into line with all other federal ministries with respect to the treatment of Part timers. DND put together "1.1" and submitted to TBS. TBS said Okie dokie, buy back of 5 years.... which DND threw back in their proverbial face.... TBS came back with +20 yrs (=25yrs) and DND suggested that, considering the limited few who would be covered beyond - go the whole way - "allegedly" - TBS said Okie dokie...
It's only after that last Okie Dokie that DND could write up the specific details of "1.1" and how it will be implemented & applied....
It would appear that the $ is there - squirreled away and waiting for us.

Considering that no one ever put things to paper before 2004-1005, I would say that it is a safe bet that things will happen. In it's own good time, granted BUT they will happen.

Time to go for a coffee and get back to work.

 

[Gunner]

Considering that no one ever put things to paper before 2004-1005, I would say that it is a safe bet that things will happen. In it's own good time, granted BUT they will happen.

Geo, I concur 100%, the Reserve pension will be sorted out in due time.  Until it is, everyone should make sure they are making RRSP contributions as best as they can so they are not complaining about the size of the buy back...

 

[bridges]

Reservists are Part time employees.  (Even CRA treats the CF members on Reserve Class A and B service as deemed to be employed by a separate employer than those in the Reg F and Class C.)  Class A 'part-time', or in the case of Class B/C 'casual contract' or 'term' employees are generally not part of the employer's pension plan.

Haggis, this is not entirely true.  First of all, there are a lot of reservists who are full-time employees and have been for many, many years.  Even in the public service, if a "term" employee is employed for three consecutive years (I think), they have to be made Indeterminate.  In the reserves, though, you just keep on going and going as a term employee, with all the uncertainty that that entails.

However - I don't want to be seen as saying that only long-term Class B reservists deserve the pension - far from it!!  Even on Class A, it's not exactly your typical "casual" employment - you have all the kit taking up space in your house, all the physical fitness requirements, all the last-minute fan-outs, deployments, etc. etc. - it invades the rest of your life in a way that no other "casual" employment does.  If the CF wants us to be ready to move, I think a pension is a good way of recognizing that sacrifice.

If you're a Reservist who wants a pension, take out an RSP.  It's guaranteed.  Nobody at Clarica or London Life is gonna promise and lie to you for thirty years that it's gonna be set up eventually and it's gonna be there when you retire. 

Hear, hear!!!  Sometimes it seems like things get done much, much more quickly and easily in the private sector.  Nevertheless:  that doesn't absolve DND of their LEGAL responsibility to get this thing done.

 

[turretmonster]

"Therefore, the concept of a Reserve pension should be scrapped and the money and PYs put towards more pressing requirements."

I just have to ask what would be more pressing? Maybe another study on combat bras or a new vehicle that can't fire sideways on a hill without killing the crew when she rolls over? Geesh.

TM

 

[turretmonster]

"How about:
-small arms ammuntion (so soldiers can fire live more than once a year)
-equipment (such as enough radios that work, NVGs you don't have to beg for)
-weapons (a company needs more than one 84 mm)
-spare parts (so the Reg F doesn't have to cannibalize stocks for deployments, leaving the Reserves with nothing)
-15% more pay."

My point is very simple, if the one army, one team concept is going to be anything more than just a nice catch phrase, steps need to be taken to bring everyone onto the same playing field very soon.

That would include getting the guys and gals the kit and ammo they need as well as making this pension a priority.

I agree with all your points, but I don't think we can scrap one in favor of the other.

TM

 

[dapaterson]

(Even CRA treats the CF members on Reserve Class A and B service as deemed to be employed by a separate employer than those in the Reg F and Class C.)

That's not quite true - it's not CRA that claim's we're different, but rather the Military pay systems (CCPS and RPSR) that treat us as different.  The fact that DND has quietly permitted this is irrelevant; we are by law (the NDA) one force, the Canadian Armed Forces.  Not two employers because getting the pay systems to communicate is not seen as a priority for the department.


Back on to the pension, the most compelling reason to implement the pension plan for the Reserve Force is also the most simple: because we were ordered to do it.  The Government gave an order to the military; the military has, thus far, not obeyed.  That's a very dangerous thing in a democratic state, having a military that picks and chooses which orders it is to follow or implement.