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Reserve Pension- Merged

As for getting used to living with 5% less income? Why?

Because Reservists don't currently pay into a pension plan.

The missing 15% of RegF pay is the SDB (3%) and the money that the RegF are currently paying into the pension (12%).

Not quite.  See the post by Geo above:

+2006:  4.3% up to YMPE and 7.8% above YMPE
+2013:  6.4% up to YMPE and 8.4% above YMPE

You pay 4.3% of your income until you max out your CPP contribution (based on average salary) and you then pay 7.8% (2006) above this amount.

Someone can correct me but i think the SDB is only ~$25 a month (~$300/yr).  3% of a Capt wage is about $2500/yr which I don't remember paying into SDB.

If a full-time, long term reservist is paying into the top level pension (55 months out of 60) and is doing the same job as the RegF beside him, why should the reservist's actual take home pay be worth less?

I'd like to keep this topic on Reserve Pensions. If you use the search function, I believe the 85% Reserve Pay has been discussed a fair bit over the years.

Cheers!
 
Gunner said:
I hope you are paying into an RRSP because you will probably need somewhere around 80K to buy all that time back (note 80K is a WAG based on a colleague buying back Reserve Service after joining the Regs). 

WAG indeed.  Where on earth is someone supposed to find anywhere from $41K -$210K (those are the WAG I've heard for a guy with my TI to buy back all his time.) The truth is no one really knows how much it'll cost a Reservist to buy into a decent "Reserve" pension.  No one probably will know in the forseeable future.  There is no urgency attached to this.  As I said earlier:

Haggis said:
We will both be dead and buried before a Reserve pension of any worth and affordability is introduced.
 
WAG indeed.

Haggis, if you are going to quote me, why don't you quote my entire paragraph instead of chosing one sentence. 

For Reservist to join Part 1.1, it will be an individual calculation as every single soldier has different earnings for each year of their service.

Everyone is different, recceguy stated he has 13 yrs Reg, 3 Cl B/C, and 15 Cl A which roughly works out to be ~20 years FTE.  My colleague (Capt) bought back 9 years for $42K, therefore $80K is a rough amount (ie a WAG).  Take it for what it is worth. 

Where on earth is someone supposed to find anywhere from $41K -$210K (those are the WAG I've heard for a guy with my TI to buy back all his time.)

Well, considering your age, I would hope you have taken your individual responsibility seriously by setting some money aside in your RRSP for your retirement. 

The truth is no one really knows how much it'll cost a Reservist to buy into a decent "Reserve" pension.  No one probably will know in the forseeable future.

The calculations for buying back service when you enter the Reg F are well known, Reservists buying back will be under the same or similar rules.  Not that hard to figure out in order to provide you with an estimate of what you are looking at paying back.

Quote from: Haggis on Today at 08:17:50
We will both be dead and buried before a Reserve pension of any worth and affordability is introduced.

Are you planning on visiting a graveyard in the next year or so?  Considering Geo's example of buying into the pension for $11K and having it turn into a estimated transfer value of $32K, it sounds like it is worth quite a bit.  Whether it is affordable or not is dependent on how long you have in, how long you have to serve, and how much you have saved for your retirement.

I certainly agree with the sentiments expressed by Rifleman62, this should have been implemented a long time ago.  Having said that, government sponsored pensions are the gold plated cadillacs within the pension spectrum (far behind the politicians though...).  It will be expensive for those with a long service however the payoff will probably be worthwhile for you. 

Cheers,
 
Gunner said:
Haggis, if you are going to quote me, why don't you quote my entire paragraph instead of chosing one sentence.

Because that's the point I was trying to make.   Until any Reservist sits down with a Reserve pension advisors, it's all WAGuessing.

Gunner said:
Everyone is different, recceguy stated he has 13 yrs Reg, 3 Cl B/C, and 15 Cl A which roughly works out to be ~20 years FTE.  My colleague (Capt) bought back 9 years for $42K, therefore $80K is a rough amount (ie a WAG).  Take it for what it is worth. 

Again, my point.  The two "guesstimates" I was personally given (the last in 2004 when the pension was touted as a "done deal.  You can retire by September!") were $169K apart to buy back 28 years.  WAG indeed!

Gunner said:
Well, considering your age, I would hope you have taken your individual responsibility seriously by setting some money aside in your RRSP for your retirement. 

First off, I'm still young.  ;) Second, I may have "taken my individual responsibility seriously", but many others haven't.  How and where do they find this type of coin? (Rhetorical question, however it would help to know if the "plan" to allow Reservists to buy back time using their RFRG was ever more than a rumour.)

Gunner said:
I certainly agree with the sentiments expressed by Rifleman62, this should have been implemented a long time ago.

And that alone makes it a low priority for the Government and Treasury Board.  If it was THAT important it'd be here by now.  Funding for this can be cut from the deliverables in favour of higher priority items.  It happens all the time!  Remember, we're talking about a (comparatively) very very small number of silent, part time, non-unionized employees here.

All that being said, I would be extremely pleased to be proven wrong in the very near future.  But until then, history is on my side.

Gunner said:
Having said that, government sponsored pensions are the gold plated cadillacs within the pension spectrum (far behind the politicians though...).  It will be expensive for those with a long service however the payoff will probably be worthwhile for you. 

Unless I'm dead and buried by then. ;D
 
For Reservist to join Part 1.1, it will be an individual calculation as every single soldier has different earnings for each year of their service.

Because that's the point I was trying to make.  Until any Reservist sits down with a Reserve pension advisors, it's all WAGuessing.

Again, my point.  The two "guesstimates" I was personally given (the last in 2004 when the pension was touted as a "done deal.  You can retire by September!") were $169K apart to buy back 28 years.  WAG indeed!

So what you are saying is you agree with the original comment in my post above?

Second, I may have "taken my individual responsibility seriously", but many others haven't.  How and where do they find this type of coin? (Rhetorical question, however it would help to know if the "plan" to allow Reservists to buy back time using their RFRG was ever more than a rumour.)

If someone hasn't taken their "individual responsibility seriously" why is it my, your,  the government's, or the taxpayer's problem? 

The RFRG is not registered savings and I would be very surprised if a member would be allowed to use it to by back pensionable earnings.  What that means is you won't be able to transfer the full amount into your pension account.  You will be restricted in the amount you can place in a registered fund ($2000/year prior to 1989 and $1500/year prior to 1996). Once you have it in an RRSP, you could transfer it into your pension account.

And that alone makes it a low priority for the Government and Treasury Board.  If it was THAT important it'd be here by now.  Funding for this can be cut from the deliverables in favour of higher priority items.  It happens all the time!  Remember, we're talking about a (comparatively) very very small number of silent, part time, non-unionized employees here.  All that being said, I would be extremely pleased to be proven wrong in the very near future.  But until then, history is on my side.

It is a relatively small number (~25K depending on where the Primary Reserve sits).  I remain positive that it will be implemented soon but I have time on my side and a steadily increasing stock market!  Let's see if something bursts prior to March/April 2007.... :crybaby:

Unless I'm dead and buried by then.

I have no doubt you will be around for awhile.  As I mentioned previously, what you (as in everyone) do is dependent on your personal circumstances (age, health, time served, time left, etc, etc).  Generally, you are better off buying into a defined benefit plan as for every dollar you put in, the government will put in at least that much... 

 
Gunner said:
So what you are saying is you agree with the original comment in my post above?

That it was a WAG?  Yes.

Gunner said:
The RFRG is not registered savings and I would be very surprised if a member would be allowed to use it to by back pensionable earnings.  What that means is you won't be able to transfer the full amount into your pension account.  You will be restricted in the amount you can place in a registered fund ($2000/year prior to 1989 and $1500/year prior to 1996). Once you have it in an RRSP, you could transfer it into your pension account.

Well this IS news to me.  In my last briefing we were told that your earned RFRG could not, under any circumstances, be used to buy back time in the plan.  Once you bought into the pension you were ineligble for the RFRG.  To use your RFRG you had to release first, sock it into an RRSP (or another plan, tax sheltered) wait out the CIF date, withdraw your RFRG amount from your investment plan (which now becomes taxable income) and buy into the pension (not tax sheltered).

Does this sound right.... or should I quit drinking while I post?
 
That it was a WAG?  Yes.

Ah, but it was an educated WAG!  That's the beauty of it ;)

Well this IS news to me.  In my last briefing we were told that your earned RFRG could not, under any circumstances, be used to buy back time in the plan.  Once you bought into the pension you were ineligble for the RFRG.  To use your RFRG you had to release first, sock it into an RRSP (or another plan, tax sheltered) wait out the CIF date, withdraw your RFRG amount from your investment plan (which now becomes taxable income) and buy into the pension (not tax sheltered).

I have no doubt someone brighter than both of us will come by this thread and set us straight on all these issues. 

If you go back to page 5 of this thread, there are some different scenario's that were being used by the CFPMP personnel were using I have attached one that may be similar to your circumstances).  Once the pension plan comes into being, the RFRG ceases to exist and is replaced by a severance package similar to what all public servants get (7 days per year of service) however it will be prorated to the amount of days you work.  You should not have to "cash out" your RFRG at that time as you should be able to wait until you actually release.  This is of benefit to the member as your RFRG and your severance pay will continue to grow as you move up in rank, increase IPC and get pay raises.  If you don't have room within your RRSP, you can only transfer the amounts I stated above.  If you have excess RRSP contribution room, you may be able to transfer it into your RRSP.

I am hoping the "how" the Reserve Pension will be implemented will come out shortly.  The longer this information is delayed...the more chance it will be pushed back another year. 

 
Know of several Reservists who have done transfers to the Public service. when they did their Component transfer, because there is no reserve pension plan, they were "given" an oportunity to buy into the pension plan.... but they had to pay both the employee AND employer sides of the contributions - annualized and with interest....

SO, IS IT WORTH IT?
when the reserve pension plan comes into effect, you'll have a plan where both you and the gov't will "put" money in........ then the answer has a good chance of being yes.
 
The new Mar 06 PPT presentation is on the CFPMP DIN. http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/cfpmp/engraph/presentation_e.asp?sidesection=5&sidecat=17

Have not read it yet.
 
kratz said:
Tess,

Remember to have the RFRG payment rolled into an RRSP as it will be fully taxable at source otherwise.

Very good point,

Does anyone know what the percentage the Govt. takes if I do not go through the RRSP route?

dileas

tess


 
the 48th regulator said:
Very good point,
Does anyone know what the percentage the Govt. takes if I do not go through the RRSP route?
dileas
tess
It'll be taxed at your current tax rate.... 34 - 40 % based on my latest pay statement.
 
Currently, if I transfer from the reserve to regular my cl a time is calculated at 25% and my cl b at 100% for pension purposes.  The regular force can transfer his time to public service for pension credits.  When the reserve pension plan becomes a reality will I be able to transfer that time to the public service.  As I see it it is the only way that a part time plan will be worthwhile and is there any info on this.  Thanks Ed.
 
Because 1.1 is not yet in place, going to the Public service is a costly process cause you end up having to chip in both the Employer & employee share of pension contributions... not a good thing.

But, once 1.1 does come into force (March 07 ????) reserve pension will certainly be convertible..... in some way, shape or form.... and that's because at that time, there will be an employer's contribution to go along with the employee's contribution.... big difference.... and that's a good thing!

How will it work............. your guess is as good as mine
 
The CF Personnel Newsletter, Issue 5/06, 24 May 2006 had an article on the Reserve Force pension arrangements update. In the third para of the article, under the heading of:  Are you considering releasing now?,  it states  " If you are not able to continue serving in one of these three sub-components (P Res, CIC, Cdn Rangers) for any reason, including medical disability or compulsory release age, please contact your administration officer and or release clerk for information on transferring to the Supplementary Reserve in order to maintain your options concerning the Reserve Force Pension Plan."  This was also stated in several CANFORGENs.
The info I have is that sometime in possibly Jul, Supp Res will change to a maximum of 60 years of age. If you are in the Supp Res when this new regulation comes into effect, you will be grandfathered to 65 YOA. If you transfer after the the new regulation is promulgated you must be under 60 YOA.

You must release from the P Res or Reg F by age 60 YOA. You cannot serve until the day before your 61st birthday. I have checked the regulations. Additionally if you are to be medically released, and on an accommodation (which effective 1 Jun 06 is restricted to one 3 year accommodation), you cannot commence your rehabilitation program until you release from the CF completely. So if you were hoping to go to the Supp Res to stay eligible for a pension expected CIF Mar 07, you cannot. You must release. The head of SSIP went to Treasury Board specifiably on this issue and was denied.

So, with the changes pending to Supp Res, if you are on an accommodation, or coming up to 60 YOA, you may be screwed.

The buy back will be restricted to 35 years of Pensionable Service, which means from the date enrolled to the CIF date of the CFPMP. I always thought if would be calculated by adding up all your Cl A, B, B"A", and C service and converting this into years of Paid CF Service as it is done now. The Pensionable Service formula means for example is that you take your best 5 years of salary, times 2%, times the number of days you were paid in one year, divided by 365 days. That would be your pension entitlement for that year. Add all your years of pension entitlement up (max 35 years)and that's your annual pension. For myself, the formula means a reduction of $8/9,000 per year of what I estimated all my service would equal as Paid CF Service. Do not forget, as a Cl A reserve the number of days you could parade have always been restricted, thus so has future pension contributions

Using the formula of CF Pensionable Service ( vice Paid CF Service as it is now) , 7% compound interest ( vice 4% simple interest as it is now), is really shoveling this at us. Add the adjustment to actual earnings by a wage adjustments to reflect increases in pay over the years, the increased contribution rates this year, and next year, buy back will be very expensive and the continued delay of CIF plus the 7% compound interest is just plan screwing us.

This pension plan should have been in effect in one year, 2000, if not in 1986 when everyone else who was working for the federal government got access. The constant delay is very expensive.
 
UNCLAS CANFORGEN 090/06 CMP 043
SUBJECT: CF PENSION MODERNIZATION IMPLEMENTATION DELAY - TRANSFER TO
SUPPLEMENTARY RESERVE
REFS: A. CANFORGEN 176/05
B. CANFORGEN 016/06
C. DAOD 5002-4 SUPPLEMENTARY RESERVE
D. QR&O CHAPTER 6 ENROLMENT AND RE-ENGAGEMENT
E. QR&O CHAPTER 10 TRANSFER, ATTACHMENT, SECONDMENT AND LOAN

1.  AS EXPLAINED AT REF A THE PENSION MODERNIZATION PROVISIONS WILL  ONLY APPLY TO THOSE SERVING IN THE CF AT THE TIME OF COMING INTO FORCE (CIF) OF THOSE PROVISIONS

2.  IN ACCORDANCE WITH REF C, MEMBERS OF BOTH THE REGULAR AND RESERVE FORCE WHO ARE BEING RELEASED BETWEEN 1 JANUARY 2006 AND COMING INTO FORCE (CIF) OF THE NEW PENSION ARE ELIGIBLE TO TRANSFER TO THE SUPPLEMENTARY RESERVE

3.  IN ADDITION THIS ELIGIBILITY MAY ALSO BE EXTENDED TO MEMBERS WHO:
A. ARE RELEASED UNDER ITEMS 1, 2, 3A, 5E AND 5F
B. HOLD THE RANK OF OFFICER CADET OR PRIVATE BASIC
C. REACH, OR WILL REACH, COMPULSORY RETIREMENT AGE BEFORE CIF OF NEW PENSION PROVISIONS, AND
D. ARE ENROLLED BY THE RCMP

4.  THESE MEMBERS MUST COMPLETE FORMS 1117 AND 2402 WHICH CAN BE
DOWNLOADED FROM <<HTTP://IMGAPP.MIL.CA/DFC2/DFC>> (UNDERSCORE)
MAIN.ASP?STRLANG (EQUAL SIGN) E
 
Rifleman62,
Per the above, any changes to supp list will have to wait for CIF date.
Thereafter, it'll be a good thing for the CF to clean up the Supp list cause there's a whole bunch of messed up people sitting on a shelf & not able to provide adequate service.
 
Geo

Possibly, or the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. There is some talk in Ottawa of creating an "invisible" Supp Res list for the CFPMP. I doubt Treasury Board will auth. To me, all this messing around with Supp Res regs is only because the CFPMP cannot get it's act in order and implement the pension. It goes without saying this is this taking so long. We have P Res mbrs getting KIA whose NOK will not get a CF Pension as survivors.  I personally do not like the Pensionable Service vice Paid CF Service nor the 7% compound interest.
 
Rifleman62 said:
Geo

Possibly, or the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. There is some talk in Ottawa of creating an "invisible" Supp Res list for the CFPMP. I doubt Treasury Board will auth. To me, all this messing around with Supp Res regs is only because the CFPMP cannot get it's act in order and implement the pension. It goes without saying this is this taking so long. We have P Res mbrs getting KIA whose NOK will not get a CF Pension as survivors.  I personally do not like the Pensionable Service vice Paid CF Service nor the 7% compound interest.

Everyone who meets the requirements of CANFORGEN 090/06 will be released into a separate SRR UIC created expressly for the purpose of maintaining them in the CF until the CIF date.  Once the CIF date arrives and their pension eligibility is determined by the CFPMP folks, they will then be released.  It is important to note that THIER RELEASE ITEM WILL NOT CHANGE.  If you're out 5F then you will be released 5F, whether you qualify for a pension or not.
 
Well, that may be the intent. It would be informative to get a straight answer to this. Track record is endless speculation.
 
Rifleman 62:

Sir, did you see this doc IRT to RRSP and pension buy backs?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dgcb/cfpmp/docs/word/PSPA-FS_Nov05_e.doc

Regards

TM
 
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