Reserve rank vs. Reg. rank

[reccecrewman]

Goodday all,

Looking to start a discussion (not a flame out, thats not the intent) on the Reserve Force rank vs. the Reg Force.  I've noticed that guys in the Reserves that have 3 - 5 years of service can be seen with the rank of MCpl. and 5 - 8 years is not out of the question for Sergeant.
With those of us in the Regs who normally have to wait 4 years just to see Corporal, then wait another 2 or more to get a leadership course, if we see MCpl. in 7 or 8 years we're in good shape.  Why the disparity in our system?  There's no way a Reserve Master Corporal with 4 or 5 years in has the same knowledge as a Reg Force Jack who has 8 years experience doing the job everyday.  Highly unlikely, but just to play devils advocate, if the entire Army mobilised, would they get to hold their rank?  Would a guy with 8 years Reserve experience and a Sgt. go off to war as a Sgt. or be dropped down a rank?  Do Reserve Corporals have to be merited to get promoted to Jack or is it simply, he has a PLQ, promote him?

Just looking for some thoughts and knowledge on the questions I've asked.  Please check your fire if you feel the urge to lash out thinking this is a Reg Force vs. Res Force flame war.  Looking for calm, rational answers on some questions I would genuinely like answered.

 

[Haggis]

Looking to start a discussion (not a flame out, thats not the intent) on the Reserve Force rank vs. the Reg Force.

Historically most threads that compare Reg to Res end up that way eventually.  Good luck with this one. ;D

... but just to play devils advocate, if the entire Army mobilised, would they get to hold their rank?

I'm guessing that the assumption you make is that we are involved in a general war, in which Orders in Council have been made for full mobilzation.  Since it hasn't happened in "modern" (post WW2) times, there is no precedent for this, so all bets are off.

In this scenario, it's not like a Res WO joins the RCD for a tour.  His qualifications go through a detailed examination compared against the position he holds in the deploying unit.  Then his rank and IPC go another calculation to determine his "equivalency".

That being said, dozens of Reservists have already gone on tours in their substantive ranks (but usually in a lower IPC), filling jobs in thier trades.

Do Reserve Corporals have to be merited to get promoted to Jack...?

They most certainly do. 

 

[Sig_Des]

up to MasterJack, I'm not a fan of the promotion system in the Res. Cpl is a gimme. For 2 years in, I will be eligible (read, they'll put it on me) June 8th. Only thing I'm getting from it is an extra 25$ a day (biggest pay jump). Other than that, don't really earn it.

MCpl, for the most part in the res seems to be Merit based, with PLQ definitely being a requirement. Acting/Lacking MasterJack isn't something I've seen in the reserves (I'm sure there are, I just haven't known any).

One of the things that stuck with me the most was a buddy, when congratulated on his promotion to Cpl said "I don't care, this is a gimme" and pointing to the bottom hook said "I actually earned this one"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I go on my QL7 with Reg Force WOs. I take the same course as them, I pass the same course as them. Am I not as qualified as them?

Take it a couple of levels down. We have mixed CLC courses, including Mod 6. Who is compared to who? Are the Regs less qualified because there was Reserves on the course, or the Reserves are equal to the Reg standard because there was Regs on the course?

There is one standard. Meet it and pass it, then it's up to experience till the next test. Then you meet it and pass it again. There's lots of cases where people were taken at face value and did the job with no problem, til someone mentioned they were ONLY a Reservist, then the green monster answered roll call. Life is not fair, especially life in the CF, excel and take your place. If you don't, don't blame others, time and circumstance. Blame yourself.

 

[TN2IC]

  Highly unlikely, but just to play devils advocate, if the entire Army mobilised, would they get to hold their rank?  Would a guy with 8 years Reserve experience and a Sgt. go off to war as a Sgt. or be dropped down a rank?  Do Reserve Corporals have to be merited to get promoted to Jack or is it simply, he has a PLQ, promote him?

Okay I am PRes.. and I would to give you some input on the deal.

Now for hold rank if mobilized? CDS is going for one army deal here. So the courses are the same objectives but may be "slacker" depending on what school you attend to.

As for war? I do not know, but as a peacekeeping tour of some sort, you keep you rank for that position. I know a few guys that went to PPCLI as PRes and was 2IC of a section. I know some folks have a problem with it. But that is fine.. as long as the training is up to date. Anyone with the rank can command. But do lead is a differenet story. It is all on experience.. may be the one there that is PRes will do D & S.. which is not bad deal... getting paid to do something along those lines.

And for the merit deal, we have a merit board within the unit. A report is sent up to the board about the personal in question, and they review it from there. I know some units give out promotion if slots are not filled, but at my unit, if you are ready, time and good PER and have the courses... well you better be ringing the bell. I know within the Militia, the rate of personal getting in and out..and positions to be filled can be a painful process. Personal get out cause of ex. school, family or no more intrest. There is no dotted line stated you have to have 3 plus years in... most of them just show up every Thursday night or whatever.. to get there $45 a night to do odd jobs.


That is my view on the questions.
Feel free to add any comments.

 

[Gunner]

We could go back to placing a "M" beside the Reservist rank (for instance Cpl (R) ) much like we used to do with women (Cpl (w)).  Or even better we could place a large embroidered "M" overtop of the rank on the epaulet.  The Nazi's did it with the Jews back in the 30s/40s and it seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

Stupid topic...

 

[Haggis]

We could go back to placing a "M" beside the Reservist rank (for instance Cpl (R) ) much like we used to do with women (Cpl (w)).

This is still done in the CF Medical System.  Ever get a prescription from a CF pharmacy?  Check the rank on the bottle label.

Or even better we could place a large embroidered "M" overtop of the rank on the epaulet.

For some the headdress is a good identifier. ;D

Stupid topic...

Possibly so, if it degenerates as per SOP with these threads,  but a valid question nonetheless.

 

[dapaterson]

MCpl, for the most part in the res seems to be Merit based, with PLQ definitely being a requirement. Acting/Lacking MasterJack isn't something I've seen in the reserves (I'm sure there are, I just haven't known any).

CFAO 49-5, the reserve NCM promotion policy, won't let you give an accelerated promotion if a leadership qualification is missing.  For acting rank, you can be short time in rank or an occupational course, but not a leadership course, so you're stuck there as well.

The policy in the Reg F is different, so it is possible to be A/MCpl while lacking PLQ in the Reg force.

Of course, MCpl isn't a rank, but that's a whole other discussion... 

 

[Haggis]

Of course, MCpl isn't a rank, but that's a whole other discussion... 

I deliberately omitted that "fact" from my posts in this thread.

 

[Jarnhamar]

leadership course, if we see MCpl. in 7 or 8 years we're in good shape.  Why the disparity in our system?  There's no way a Reserve Master Corporal with 4 or 5 years in has the same knowledge as a Reg Force Jack who has 8 years experience doing the job everyday.

Simple. Reserves have a higher turn over rate.
Reserves need to be promoted faster because reserves are always quitting, leaving for school, transfering to the regular force etc..
We need leaders faster.

I know a few guys that went to PPCLI as PRes and was 2IC of a section

Me too. If you know how to do the job then you know how to do the job.

 

[Gunner]

This is still done in the CF Medical System.  Ever get a prescription from a CF pharmacy?  Check the rank on the bottle label.

Can't say I have ever seen this happen for years.

 

[Haggis]

Can't say I have ever seen this happen for years.

In the interests of keeping this on topic, PM inbound.

 

[GO!!!]

Simple. Reserves have a higher turn over rate.
Reserves need to be promoted faster because reserves are always quitting, leaving for school, transfering to the regular force etc..
We need leaders faster.

Reg Force Bns are often short 10-15 MCpls accross their units, and do not see the need to promote unexperienced Cpls - DAPS or otherwise. Since these units are the ones deployed on missions, I fail to see the need for the reserves to promote faster based on some percieved "need".

Need for what?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Go!!! Not so much for cpl to mcpl specifically. I'd say reserves need to get their soldiers started on the leadership path faster.  Privates to corporals. Corporals up to sergeant. Sergeant up to warrant.

Regular force can order someone on a posting or teaching position.  They have a pretty good idea if they need 6 instructors for a course they can grab them from somewhere. Not so with the reserves. You can't order a reservist to work.  School comes up, reserves can't get time off their regular jobs, guys who want to vacation in the summer etc.. After a reservist has spent 3 or 4 years as a reservist they are often finishing their school so they may move away. They might find a new unit OR they might quit the reserves all together.
Finding leaders for taskings and courses is trickier in the reserves so you need a wider pool of people to draw from.  Attricion plays a major factor.  Put 5 or 6 corporals through their leadership course and in a few years you might have a sergrant and 2 master corporals, the other 2 or 3 are gone.
Does this mean your exchanging quality for quantity? I'd say to a degree yes.  Is there still a need? I'd say yes..

Are reserve corporals and sergeants on par with regular force corporals and sergeants?  Not usually.
I've seen a lot of people need to point that out though.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Just to add a bit of history: prior to 1966 it was possible for a regular force soldier to be promoted to corporal after only 18 months of service.  It wasn’t ‘normal’ but plenty of soldiers made lance corporal, completed junior NCO course and were promoted to corporal during the second 18 month stage of their career (age 19-22).  Most of the younger corporals were in HQ and Support companies – getting a bit of seasoning before going to a rifle section and, later, Recce Platoon.

Memory suggests that it was fairly normal to find one or two ‘young’ (20 something) corporal section commanders in a rifle platoon and one or two ‘old’ (30 something) ones.  Forty year old corporals did exist but they were more common in service support and garrison units.

There were more regimental jobs 40+ years ago and, consequently, more junior leader development posts: clerks and storemen (supply techs), for example, were regimental soldiers.  The company clerk was, usually, an infantry corporal and a trained clerk.  Bright young soldiers were often sent of clerk, signaller and mortar courses and I think all three groups had a ‘better’ (maybe 3:1 or even 2:1) corporal to private ratios than the norm (about 6:1 overall, I guess).

It can be argued that there was less to learn 40 or 50 or more years ago so faster promotion was possible, but I would counter that the soldiers doing the learning were less sophisticated and had a steeper learning curve so I suspect it is a wash.

 

[ZipperHead]

After reading Edwards post (a little historical perspective isn't always a bad thing), I was reminded of a discussion I had a while back regarding the Cpl rank level being a "gimme". I have always felt that the Cpl rank is the first level of leadership for a soldier, and shouldn't be automatic (much like Captain shouldn't be a gimme, but that's another discussion, I 'spose).

There should be no shame in staying a Cpl for a whole career, but arguably if a soldier has no leadership potential, or desire for leadership, they should remain a private (or historically, I guess) or a Lance Corporal. The reason, to my understanding, that Cpl is automatic after 4 years was due to Unification and the "need" for tradesmen in the other branches to be able to still advance, but not neccesarily fill leadership positions. I'm not sure if that makes sense to everyone, but this brings us to the state that we are in today: in the Regs, it takes (on average) 4 years to make it to Cpl, and due to a number of reasons (which I don't agree with, but that matters not) about 2 years for Reserves.

Let's suppose that the CF said "from this point on, a Reservist will have to spend 8 years in the Private rank before being eligible for promotion to Cpl". I think that would bum out the Reserves, wouldn't it?!? So, now Reserves, place yourself in a Reg F Privates position, knowing that you achieve the Cpl rank (on average) twice as fast as he/she does. Now you see it from their point of view, and can see why there is a level of resentment.

I don't think that anybody would be happy with any solution that was imposed, as it wouldn't satify either camps opinion on what is "fair" or right. If the Reserve world was more on par with the Reg F in terms of attrition, I don't think the rank disparity would be an issue, and I suppose there are examples of back in the 80's (and I suspect it will happen in the near future with our rapid expansion plans) where Reg F soldiers advanced at rates far faster than the Reserve world due to the high turnover rates. I think a lesson for all of us to learn is that it isn't wise to fight your last battle (in other words, you can't always use what has happened in the recent past as a template for what is going to happen in the near future). I know that there are a lot of soldier's OT'ing because they look back a few years, see the slow progression and figure that the grass in greener on the other side. But if they stay abreast of how things are shaping up, they might see a huge change in the speed of rank/career progression, and realize they might be better served to stay in their current trade. And I guess for the Reserves, once things (attrition/turnover) slow down (if they ever do), the "2 years to Corporal" may go away, and come back on par with the Reg F "norm" of 4 years.

Al

 

[reccecrewman]

Well, I'm happy to see that upon checking this thread this morning, it didn't turn into a flame war, some very good points and reasonings were made that sort of clarified my queries.  At least to the point I have a better understanding of why things work the way they do WRT rank.  I knew that Reservists had to take Reg Force courses in Gagetown like DP3A and above which if they pass, then yes, they're qualified to hold the rank that the courses is a pre-requisite for.  So again, I wasn't looking to pigeon-hole Reserve Sergeants and Warrants, the big question for me was the time differential.  It brings the question that if a Reserve Sergeant CT's to a Reg Force Unit of the same MOC, you never see (Well, I should say I've never seen or heard it) them hold that rank even though on paper, they are qualified to hold that rank.  Why is that?  I'm going to attempt to answer my own question and get feedback on it.  Is it to prevent guys from spending a few years in the Reserves, get as many courses as possible, then come to the Regs with a major jump over guys who came in via Reg Force Battle Schools?

Thanks for the answers thus far, and for keeping it civil.

 

[Haggis]

....the big question for me was the time differential.

When calculating Reserve service Time Credit to Promotion (TCP), Class A (part time) service counts as 4 to 1.  4 days Class A equals one day Reg F.  Clas B or C service is counted one for one.

It brings the question that if a Reserve Sergeant CT's to a Reg Force Unit of the same MOC, you never see (Well, I should say I've never seen or heard it) them hold that rank even though on paper, they are qualified to hold that rank.  Why is that?

If the CT'ing Reservist has been lucky enough to attend some Reg F courses and has a lot of Class B and C time, then, an equivalency may be granted.  CFRG HQ makes that call.

Not all trades have 100% equivalency between Reg F and Res F qualifications. The Cbt A are the farthest apart.  The Air Reserve and Naval Reserve are light years ahead of the Army in this respect.

Thanks for the answers thus far, and for keeping it civil.

So far, so good!  ;D

 

[c_canuk]

As far as I know, all Class A periods... periods of time where one signs in on a day by day basis, is counted 4 to 1, and full time contracts are 1 for 1...

I've got almost 8 years in with the PRes comms, and according to the above scale I am the equivalent to a Cpl(2) which is about right, if I transfer to the Reg Forces, I drop back down to Cpl(2). So that seems fair to me, I will have an advantage over other Cpl(2)s however because I have been given the opportunity to attend a PLQ, which was mixed Reg and Res.

Is it fair for the Reg... no, but it's necessary, there is only one MCpl in my unit right now, me. we have around 90 people on paper, one MCpl and a few Cpls who have PLQ... they were not promoted because they are not ready for promotion yet. The Reg does have aMCpl at much less than 8 years from what I understand, it is possible to be in the Reg and wear the rank of MCpl at 6 years, which is not too far from the Res of 5, 2 years as Pte, 3 years as Cpl.

It does happen that some units promote members a little faster than 5 for MCpl... but it's not looked well upon by other Res either.

Should I be penalized, or should we hate the game not the player?

 

[TN2IC]

Haggis.. you stole my thunder. But other than that.....your right on the money.. 100% with you on that one.