ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]

[kimbrian]

So my ROTP is about to start, but it happened in a very interesting way... I applied for Sig O last year to attend UBC and wasn't selected. Unaware that my appl would carry over, I started a new Cl B contract as a recruiter in Vancouver, and then I get an email only last week saying I was selected for Sig O for ROTP CIV U..... Immediately I drop everything I'm doing and write out a letter requesting UBC to consider my late, late application, explaining my situation. I gotta say they were amazing. It's been less than 2 weeks since I sent that letter and they've approved; they're already working for a "late deferral" from my last year's application, which saves me $150 bux as well!

Now I'm just patiently waiting for my CT Capt to get back to me with confirmation saying he'll get started on the official offer. Hopefully they'll offer to at least keep similar pay (Reserve PO2) and send me to BMOQ-L even before my school starts to get it out of the way...


Recruiting Centre: Vancouver BC
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: Officer
Entry plan: ROTP (CIVI U)
Choice 1: Signals Officer
Choice 2: Int Officer (Land)
Choice 3: N/A
Applied: Dec 2016
First Contact: Dec 2016
Docs to RMC: (enrolled to UBC 03 June 2018)
CFAT/TSD-PI: (CT from Reserve Cl B)
Interview: Mar 2017
Medical: (CT from Reserve Cl B)   
Merit Listed: unknown
Position Offered: 25 May 2018
Enrollment: (CT from Reserve Cl B)
BMOQ: PLAR

 

[Armour8]

Hello Everybody,

I have made a facebook group for the ROTP/RMC class of 2022. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2205319479688194/

Feel free to add members you may know. Share occupation and other information (hobbies, home town, date of BMOQ/ enrolment, and etc...). This will give us a great opportunity to get to know each other before training starts ;D.

 

[kimbrian]

So my ROTP is about to start, but it happened in a very interesting way... I applied for Sig O last year to attend UBC and wasn't selected. Unaware that my appl would carry over, I started a new Cl B contract as a recruiter in Vancouver, and then I get an email only last week saying I was selected for Sig O for ROTP CIV U..... Immediately I drop everything I'm doing and write out a letter requesting UBC to consider my late, late application, explaining my situation. I gotta say they were amazing. It's been less than 2 weeks since I sent that letter and they've approved; they're already working for a "late deferral" from my last year's application, which saves me $150 bux as well!

Now I'm just patiently waiting for my CT Capt to get back to me with confirmation saying he'll get started on the official offer. Hopefully they'll offer to at least keep similar pay (Reserve PO2) and send me to BMOQ-L even before my school starts to get it out of the way...


Recruiting Centre: Vancouver BC
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: Officer
Entry plan: ROTP (CIVI U)
Choice 1: Signals Officer
Choice 2: Int Officer (Land)
Choice 3: N/A
Applied: Dec 2016
First Contact: Dec 2016
Docs to RMC: (enrolled to UBC 03 June 2018)
CFAT/TSD-PI: (CT from Reserve Cl B)
Interview: Mar 2017
Medical: (CT from Reserve Cl B)   
Merit Listed: unknown
Position Offered: 25 May 2018
Enrollment: (CT from Reserve Cl B)
BMOQ: PLAR

Got the offer letter 29 Jul!.. Starting school in Sept.

 

[Shrinjay]

So I have a couple of questions about civi u rotp. Say I apply for a couple Civi uni's (looking at Waterloo, UBC, UofA, in that order), as long as I get accepted into one the CF will allow me to go there and pay for the tuition? Or is it only if you need to go to a civi u? Is there a cap on how much tuition they'll pay, since one of those uni's are very expensive.

How does residence work, do you get anything for it or do you just have to hope the salary gets you by (which it won't in UBC). Can you stay at quarters at a nearby base if available?

Is getting a second job allowed at all? Or doing work terms, coop, internships etc. This is going to be important so if I can't, I may just go to RMC.

I'd like to thank everyone for their help in advance.

 

[Hucker]

I did ROTP Civi-U. My info might not be up to date so feel free to correct as needed.

To get accepted to the CivU program, I had to write an essay explaining why the school/program I chose was a better choice than RMC.

Tuition cap : If it is a mandatory fee, it's gonna be covered, except for student's union.

Residence : you will get Post Living Differential (PLD)  depending on the town. I don't have the link right now.

Coop/internship : If it is part of the degree, you can do it with the CAF. If you want to do it with a private company, you have to take leave without pay as you cannot get a secondary payment for your duty (since CAF pay for school, and the internship is mandatory, internship = regular duty)

Secondary job: Case by case. In Montreal, it was not allowed.

Hope this help.

 

[Shrinjay]

Hi Hucker,

Yeah that definetly cleared a lot of stuff up. The process sounds kind of interesting so I just have a couple more questions.

1. How exactly would you convince them that the uni you choose is better than RMC? Is it good enough to go "they're the #2" engineering school in Canada, will bring out my true potential etc. ?

2. So if a second job is not allowed how would you.. survive? Rent for one room in Waterloo is $600 and it's $900 in Vancouver.  If I'm correct Ocdt salary is like $1200/motnh so it's pretty tight. Do you have to demonstrate to your CO why you need a second job?

3. How do you advance up the pay steps in ROTP, is it yearly?

I'd like to thank you for your help, you've shed light on many questions I had.

 

[Lumber]

For question 3, yes it is yearly. Right now the monthly pay rates for each year are 1667, 1700, 1739, and 1772.

For question 2:

PLD stands for “Post Living Differential”, which is a benefit paid to members of the CAF based on where they live. If you live in an expensive city, you basically get extra money each money to offset the higher cost of living. Montreal, for example, has PLD of $432 per month (before tax). This is in addition to you pay as an OCdt.

I’m not sure what kind of lifestyle you live, or if you have a family, but it’s entirely doable (everyone before you did it). When I was an ROTP student, I was at RMC. Kingston has a PLD of $0, so all I received was my paltry OCdt pay. Further, as an RMC student, I had to live in residence, so I had rations and quarters automatically deducted from my pay. The result was that I received only around $200 every pay check.

This $200 was for everything from my cell phone bill, car insurance, gas, eating out money, drinking money, vacation money, clothes, video games, etc.

Some people made it work; I didn’t. I went out and got a student line of credit. I was able to use the student line of credit to buy a car, buy a motorcycle, travel, and party. I did all this because I knew that when I graduated my salary was going to instantly increase form $18k/year to $51k/year, plus I would be moving to Victoria which would give me an additional $10k/year in PLD, thereby effectively tripling my salary in 1 day.

I left RMC with a $30k student line of credit and had it paid off in just over a year.

Some people I went to school with didn’t take out a line of credit and left RMC with money in their pocket (I still don’t know how).

So, you can make it work.

 

[Shrinjay]

So since that post I've crunched the numbers again and turns out I can make it in pretty much all of my top choice uni's on OCdt pay alone. After income tax I can still save up some money to go see family etc. I'm really scared of living paycheck to paycheck but looks like that may not be the case. Anyways, how do internships and coop work. Do you get penalized for taking leave without pay for doing a co op? How would I do a co op with the CF seeing as my AERE training wouldn't be completed? It's just somewhat confusing how that would all work.

Thanks to everyone who's helped me out so far, it's really good to have all this info ahead of time.

 

[Lumber]

So since that post I've crunched the numbers again and turns out I can make it in pretty much all of my top choice uni's on OCdt pay alone. After income tax I can still save up some money to go see family etc. I'm really scared of living paycheck to paycheck but looks like that may not be the case. Anyways, how do internships and coop work. Do you get penalized for taking leave without pay for doing a co op? How would I do a co op with the CF seeing as my AERE training wouldn't be completed? It's just somewhat confusing how that would all work.

Thanks to everyone who's helped me out so far, it's really good to have all this info ahead of time.

Can you elaborate on "internships and coops"?

I'm not an engineer, but I don't recall ever hearing about engineering programs have internships or coops as part of their university curriculums.

The ROTP program provides you with 4 years of paid education (there are some exceptions). If the school your are attending has as part of its curriculum a coop or internship program, then that would be covered, as it is part of your "education". If, for example, the 2nd half of years 3 of your program involves you working at an engineering firm, then as long as that is part of the curriculum and is necessary for the completion of your baccalaureate, well then that's what we're paying for.

Unless I'm not understanding what you mean by internships and coop?

 

[Shrinjay]

Can you elaborate on "internships and coops"?

I'm not an engineer, but I don't recall ever hearing about engineering programs have internships or coops as part of their university curriculums.

The ROTP program provides you with 4 years of paid education (there are some exceptions). If the school your are attending has as part of its curriculum a coop or internship program, then that would be covered, as it is part of your "education". If, for example, the 2nd half of years 3 of your program involves you working at an engineering firm, then as long as that is part of the curriculum and is necessary for the completion of your baccalaureate, well then that's what we're paying for.

Unless I'm not understanding what you mean by internships and coop?

It's basically work experience programs. Most don't require it but Waterloo offers it as a large part of their curriculum, as do most other universities. I'm not sure if it's mandatory at Waterloo or not, but coop works where you work one term at an engineering firm and study for two terms. Any idea how it would work with the military?

 

[TwoTonShackle]

For you to participate in the co-op program you would need permission from the SEM through the local ULO. You'd have to request a leave of absence while you were employed in the co-op terms. All of this still doesn't guarantee you get a co-op placement though.

 

[Blackadder1916]

It's basically work experience programs. Most don't require it but Waterloo offers it as a large part of their curriculum, as do most other universities. I'm not sure if it's mandatory at Waterloo or not, but coop works where you work one term at an engineering firm and study for two terms. Any idea how it would work with the military?

Is there a specific reason why you are so interested in "co-op" programs?  Or is it the specific university (Waterloo?) and they seem to make co-op programs an attractive way (especially financially) to complete a degree?  You aren't the first to ask the Waterloo question in this forum University of Waterloo Students Enrolled in ROTP .

If one of the reasons you are looking at a co-op program is the financial incentive of earning extra money during the work terms, then you would be out of luck.  While work term employers have to pay co-op students, in the case of ROTP students since they are already paid by the government they are not permitted to keep any additional pay provided for their work term services.  Since you seem to be interested in engineering programs, it may be a moot point, but if you were accepted to pursue a co-op degree program under ROTP you would be limited to only a few occupations.

CFAO 9-12 -- REGULAR OFFICER TRAINING PLAN

4.    Normally successful candidates will be selected for attendance at a
CMC; however, for a variety of reasons, some candidates are selected for
academic training at other academic institutions. Candidates who already
are attending university when they apply for the ROTP normally will
continue their courses at that university. Candidates selected to attend a
civilian university and who elect to study in a co-operative engineering
programme are restricted to the AERE, CELE, EME, and MARE occupations. In
addition to the normal academic progression expected, members must complete
successfully the approved training/employment during work-periods to
qualify for continued subsidization.

And there is also the training timeline to consider.  After a quick look at Waterloo's site https://uwaterloo.ca/future-students/co-op, it appears that if one followed their co-op schedule, the military training that normally occurs during the summer months between school years would have to be postponed until a degree was completed.  But Waterloo also provides a regular (non co-op) system of study.

 

[Shrinjay]

Is there a specific reason why you are so interested in "co-op" programs?  Or is it the specific university (Waterloo?) and they seem to make co-op programs an attractive way (especially financially) to complete a degree?  You aren't the first to ask the Waterloo question in this forum University of Waterloo Students Enrolled in ROTP .

If one of the reasons you are looking at a co-op program is the financial incentive of earning extra money during the work terms, then you would be out of luck.  While work term employers have to pay co-op students, in the case of ROTP students since they are already paid by the government they are not permitted to keep any additional pay provided for their work term services.  Since you seem to be interested in engineering programs, it may be a moot point, but if you were accepted to pursue a co-op degree program under ROTP you would be limited to only a few occupations.

And there is also the training timeline to consider.  After a quick look at Waterloo's site https://uwaterloo.ca/future-students/co-op, it appears that if one followed their co-op schedule, the military training that normally occurs during the summer months between school years would have to be postponed until a degree was completed.  But Waterloo also provides a regular (non co-op) system of study.

First of all thanks for the incredibly detailed answer. Yeah the reasoning is mostly financial, but since it turns out you can't keep the extra pay, there's no point. I also didn't look at the coop schedule. Not dojnf coop is not a huge deal, the military is the work experience after all. Anyways thanks for the info.

I'd like to thank everyone in this thread, y'all are great. I know I've been asking a lot of questions, some stupid, but I need a lotta info. I'm hell bent on joining the military, my family isn't as enthusiastic. If I join, I'd be the first one in my family's recorded history to serve in the military, so my family doesn't really understand my choice. So I've been trying to get all the information I can so I can use that to help me with the ongoing negotiations.

 

[Pusser]

So I have a couple of questions about civi u rotp. Say I apply for a couple Civi uni's (looking at Waterloo, UBC, UofA, in that order), as long as I get accepted into one the CF will allow me to go there and pay for the tuition? Or is it only if you need to go to a civi u? Is there a cap on how much tuition they'll pay, since one of those uni's are very expensive.

How does residence work, do you get anything for it or do you just have to hope the salary gets you by (which it won't in UBC). Can you stay at quarters at a nearby base if available?

Is getting a second job allowed at all? Or doing work terms, coop, internships etc. This is going to be important so if I can't, I may just go to RMC.

I'd like to thank everyone for their help in advance.

As a general rule, you are applying for entry into the Canadian Forces under an officer entry plan.  That's the first part.  After you have been accepted into ROTP, THEN the CAF will decide where you go.  The first choice is always RMC, unless the program that the CAF wants you to pursue (our choice not necessarily yours, although we consider your preferences with your choice being to accept what we offer, or not) is not available at RMC or there are no spots left at RMC.

If you are selected for ROTP Civi U, then you may receive PLD if your school is in an area where PLD is payable.  If there is a base nearby and there is room in the officers' quarters, you may be able to stay there, but keep in mind that you have to pay for that (monthly deduction on your pay, but you cannot be charged more than you earn).  There is no cap on tuition or on any mandatory fees, including mandatory student fees.  You will also be reimbursed for any required equipment and text books.

I don't know exactly how coop payment would work, but other types of jobs are generally OK. QR&O 19.42 (Civil Employment) covers this.  If you want to go work part-time at McDonalds, you should be OK ("continuous" employment is prohibited).  In general, CAF regulations do not prohibit "moonlighting" other than a general requirement that it cannot interfere with your primary duty.  In your case, going to school and getting educated is your primary duty, so theoretically, you could be disciplined if you are caught cutting class (whether you were doing that for a part-time job or other reasons) or if your part time job somehow prevented you from succeeding in your degree program.  However, your University Liaison Officer (ULO) cannot otherwise prevent you from getting a part-time job.  If the ULO for Montreal told ROTP students they couldn't get part-time jobs, he was wrong to do so. Apparently, moonlighting is actually encouraged in some medical/dental occupations because it provides experience that looking after a basically healthy population does not.

When I was on ROTP (Civi U), I lived in the local officers' mess and worked part time at a department store to supplement my $800 gross monthly salary.  Sadly, neither that officers' mess (CFB Toronto), nor that department store (Eaton's) still exist, but I'm not taking the blame for that one.

 

[dapaterson]

Sadly, neither that officers' mess (CFB Toronto), nor that department store (Eaton's) still exist, but I'm not taking the blame for that one.

I don't know - how many ships did you sail in that are no longer in service?  How many bases did you serve at that are no longer in use?

...there seems to be a common thread coming out...

 

[Pusser]

I don't know - how many ships did you sail in that are no longer in service?  How many bases did you serve at that are no longer in use?

...there seems to be a common thread coming out...

Every base, except Toronto is still in use (it really would be difficult to get rid of the naval ones).  However, every ship except ORIOLE has now been sent to scrap or has become a marine park.  I still say it's all coincidence...

 

[Calvillo]

As a general rule, you are applying for entry into the Canadian Forces under an officer entry plan.  That's the first part.  After you have been accepted into ROTP, THEN the CAF will decide where you go.  The first choice is always RMC, unless the program that the CAF wants you to pursue (our choice not necessarily yours, although we consider your preferences with your choice being to accept what we offer, or not) is not available at RMC or there are no spots left at RMC.

First of all, if my post below reads a little bit crass, I apologize. It is certainly not meant to be.

So suppose my son applies to RMC (via ROTP) and a number of civilian universities. Suppose that he is accepted in the RMC and civilian universities in the same program. For example let us say that he gets accepted at Mechanical Engineering programs at RMC and at McGill. Is it possible for him to decline RMC, choose McGill instead and keep the ROTP? Reason? Well, Mechanical Engineering at McGill is arguably the best and most competitive in Canada. RMC is nowhere close academically.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . . Is it possible for him to decline RMC, choose McGill instead and keep the ROTP? Reason? Well, Mechanical Engineering at McGill is arguably the best and most competitive in Canada. RMC is nowhere close academically.

Let's look at it this way.  The Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) is a programme to generate officers who hopefully go on to careers in the Canadian Forces.  It is not intended to subsidize individuals to get the "best and most competitive" education possible in Canada.  The subsidization of post secondary education is simply an acceptable method by which the government can attract individuals to join and stay in the Forces for at least a limited period after meeting a minimal education standard.  The criteria of providing "Little Johnny" the best and most competitive education available doesn't figure in.  The government keeps the Royal Military College open at great expense because at one time they determined that it would be a cost effective way to give potential officers a good education (academic and military).  There are, however, limitations on what the RMC can provide.  They don't have degree programmes applicable for all uniformed occupations; mostly these are in the health services, i.e. doctors, dentists, nurses, etc.  Some individuals are already well into their undergrad programs at a civilian university and it would not make sense to make them start over at RMC (one of its limitation is that the programme is designed on starting at year one and going the full four years in its unique military environment).  And then it has an actual space problem in terms of facilities and faculty - it is a small university both in student body and physical plant - one reason why a potential ROTP cadet may need to attend a civilian university is because the need for officers in that particular year exceeds the capacity of RMC.  And the reverse is also considered, why would the government subsidize someone to attend a civilian education when the same degree is available at RMC and if he doesn't go, there would be unused capacity.

 

[Calvillo]

Thank you for the explanation and pardon me for not understanding the in and out of the CF properly. I was thinking about the U.S. model in responding to this thread. Over there, while there are service academies, there are also ROTC programs in universities. Therefore, a high school graduate can choose to go to MIT for example and join the NROTC there, and receive 4-year scholarship, rather than go to Annapolis; providing that s/he is accepted at both institutions. At the end, if successful, s/he will be commissioned as a Naval Officer just the same. Obviously this is not how it works in the Canadian Forces.

 

[Pusser]

Thank you for the explanation and pardon me for not understanding the in and out of the CF properly. I was thinking about the U.S. model in responding to this thread. Over there, while there are service academies, there are also ROTC programs in universities. Therefore, a high school graduate can choose to go to MIT for example and join the NROTC there, and receive 4-year scholarship, rather than go to Annapolis; providing that s/he is accepted at both institutions. At the end, if successful, s/he will be commissioned as a Naval Officer just the same. Obviously this is not how it works in the Canadian Forces.

Keep in mind that ROTP in Canada meansRegularOfficer Training Program and that ROTC in the US stands for Reserve Officer Training Corps.  Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces, they remain Reserve officers which has certain implications with regard to career progression and even job security.  Virtually , the only way to get a regular commission in the US Armed Forces is through the service academies and I think, maybe, The Citadel and VMI.  Although ROTC and ROTP appear similar in many ways, in many others they are quite different.