Russia and China To Hold Joint Military Exercises

[devil39]

History of the Peloponnesian War (Penguin Classics) by Thucydides, Rex Warner
# Paperback: 464 pages
# Publisher: Penguin Books; Reprint edition (September 1, 1954)
# ISBN: 0140440399

Sorry, it is a book  

OK.   Disproving Barnett's economic theories.   Must first have read Barnett though!    >

Thucydides will not quite cut it, but worth the read, regardless.

 

[edadian]

Interesting development on the BBC. 10 000 troops in a combined arms excercise near Vladivostok and the Shandong peninsula

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4162054.stm

It looks like the tensions between the two is gone. Wonder what this means for Canada?

 

[Jascar]

Wonder what this means for Canada?

What does Canada have to do with it?

 

[tig3r]

thats a very interesting article. i was quite surprised that such large countries, both with military might can get along and run a military exercise such as this. I see it as definitely a statement to the US, something that is going to bother those in the US administration. i wonder whats next in asia...India and Pakistan running a joint military exercise?? who knows...

 

[Jascar]

The joint exercises by China and Russia are clearly nothing more than a message. Both nations have said that they don't like the single-superpower reality of today's world,  so now they're trying to flex a little muscle. It doesn't mean that they've put aside centuries of rivalry or that we can expect a Russian/Chinese invasion of our coasts any time soon.

I doubt the US is worried about this. They realize this is merely a show, plus they get the chance to look at the Chinese air force's ability to work with ground troops, Chinese technology, China's ability (or inability) to move large numbers of troops, and China's ability to work with Russia. The militaries of both of these nations are known to be in quite a sad state. You can bet that the Americans will be monitoring every bit of this exercise and it could turn out to be the comedy of the year.

 

[edadian]

We can just chalk this up to the new world order counter balancing American hegemony. The United States is the sick man of Earth, the daily business reports show that. Massive job cuts at Chrysler the other day and recently GM combined with the huge deficit and debt run up by the 'fiscally responsible' Republicans.

Latest figures show the US military spends equal to what all other militaries spend and yet is still having trouble with equipment and troop rotations. The US Army can't get its recruitment targets and doesn't have enough troops to deploy if another conflict arrises. The constant interferance from Rumsfeld and his chronies isn't helping matters. The other day Nova had a look at the Stryker Brigades and concluded a very low tech force could defeat them. A former US Marine General proved it when he came back to run the excercise.

As for the US being there for us in a crisis I doubt it. If were serious allies why are they hurting our economy on the agricultural and soft wood lumber fronts. We signed a security agreement with them in 1926 and they sold weapons to our enemies from 1939-1941.

It is time for Canada to be more global. The modern world the US represents died with the Soviet Union this is now the Post-Modern world (for those who need labels). I'm not saying cut ties with the US but it can't be our only or most important option. Russia, China, India, South Africa, Brazil and others are moving faster and redrawing the maps of the world. Canada can join in and be a player or cushion Americas fall.

 

[Blue Max]

I am not sure where I read this now, but the article mentioned that analyst believed that this joint Russian - Chinese exercise was mostly a showcase for Russian arms sales to China.

Do you see anything you like, you can have it in any colour, as long as its camouflage. ;D

On a serious note, most military powers are stocking up on main weapons platforms. I have yet to see any tangible equipment requisition plans for DND. ???

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

I'm just curious, why is there an American on the directing staff for Army.ca?

 

[Kirkhill]

Yeah but Sherwood, what have you done for us recently? ;D

Chris

 

[Kirkhill]

Cheers, and thanks.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I'm just curious, why is there an American on the directing staff for Army.ca?

Because Mike Bobbitt asked him to be on the DS....no other better reason then that IMO.

 

[Britney Spears]

Right, back on topic then.....

Rumour has it that the whole ex was paid for entirely by the Chinese.

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=601906

The Mercenaries of Goodwill
// Russian will participate in anti-American maneuvers for Chinese money
Today in Vladivostok the chief of general staff of the Russian Armed Forces Yuri Baluevsky and his counterpart in the National Liberation Army of China Lan Guanlee will announce today about the beginning of Russian-Chinese military maneuvers "Peace Mission -2005." For seven days Russian and Chinese generals and officers will analyze military-political situation and will transfer the results of analysis from maps to the battleground. In the final stage 10,000 joint Russian and Chinese troops will practice how to eliminate unlawful bands of armed insurgents using heavy bombers and naval vessels.
The Russian side will provide more than 1,800 military servicemen. Moscow also will provide two strategic bombers Tu-95MS, four long-distance bombers Tu-22M3, military transport aircraft Il-76MD, refueling aircraft Il-78, the AWACS aircraft 8-50, front-line bomber SU-24M2 and fighters SU-27SM. Moreover, the Pacific fleet will provide big destroyer "Marshal Shaposhnikov," destroyer "Burny," large landing ship BDK 11 with a regiment of naval infantry from the 55th Division of Naval Infantry and cadets of Naval Institute of Makarov (Vladivostok) and also the tanker Pechenga and sea tugboat SB-522. Five Il-76MD will drop with parachutes 12 paratrooper armored carrier vehicles BMD-2 as well as a regiment of paratroopers from 76th Airborne Division (Pskov).

From the Chinese side, there will be up to 8,000 military servicemen participating in maneuvers. Moreover, Beijing will provide four destroyers, two mine sweepers, six large landing ships with naval infantry onboard, two diesel submarines, and also three bombers N-6, 10 military transport Il-76 and Y-8 with paratroopers onboard, three SU-30MKK, several helicopters Mi-8 and Z-5 and up to 100 tanks and armored carrier vehicles.

According to the statement of Col. Gen. Vladimir Moltensky who is commanding the maneuvers from the Russian side, "The Mission" has "very anti-terrorist and anti-extremist character." The legend of the maneuvers says that up to 100,000 terrorists and extremists from some hypothetical state will be facing 10,000 Russian and Chinese soldiers. To destroy the insurgents, Moscow and Beijing got UN approval and will deploy joint troops using naval and air landing. These troops should seize a certain part of Shandun Peninsula.

Simultaneously, Russian and Chinese naval vessels will search and destroy in the Yellow Sea a submarine of a hypothetical adversary and two Russian strategic bombers Tu-95MS and four long-range bombers Tu-22M3 with support of three Chinese H-6 and pointed for target by AWACS plane A-50 will strike the insurgents.

One of the goals Russia is trying to achieve during these maneuvers is to help China make a decision to purchase new Russian weapons. As Kommersant found out, this Russian advertisement campaign for the newest weaponry was paid for by China, which probably wants to see these systems in the battlefield.

So why did the Chinese pay big money for that? Yesterday, or in other words, right before the Chinese-Russian maneuvers, Taiwan had its own military games with the goal to practice defending itself from a military intrusion from mainland China. That means that Taipei understood "The Peace Mission 2005" as preparation to seize the island or in the more soft version, as a demonstration of Russian intention not to judge China if it decides to attack Taiwan. And maybe Russia would even help its strategic partner. That is probably why "The Mission" attracted the attention of Washington, which according to the agreement with Taiwan cannot stand aside in case the island is attacked.

The idea to conduct maneuvers appeared in December of last year. During his visit to Beijing, Minister of Defense Sergei Ivanov suggested the Chinese to have joint anti-terrorist maneuvers. They agreed and proposed to have them on Sergevsk Proving Ground of Primorie Region. However, Russian troops regularly practice there its defense against a Chinese attack. So Moscow proposed a different place - Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China where there are pockets of Uyghur separatists. Besides, this location is close to Central Asia where international terrorists are fighting with American military. Russian and China would prefer to keep them both out of the region. However, in that moment, the Taiwan problem was more important for Beijing than terrorists in Central Asia. For that reason, the Chinese proposed to conduct joint maneuvers not far from Taiwan. Because in March the Chinese parliament approved the law "About Preventing the Split of the Country" that legalizes "non-peaceful measures" of control by China over Taiwan, Moscow asked to move the maneuvers a bit further from the "damned island." As a result, the place for the maneuvers was chosen at Shandun Peninsula, although the number and quality of the troops involved in "The Peace Mission" makes one believe that they will be practicing not a fight with terrorism but seizure of some territory, for instance, Taiwan.

However, the "hint" is addressed not only to Taiwan. Since March the world went through a lot of events, for instance there was a bloody uprising in Uzbekistan that happened after the Colored Revolution in Kyrgyzstan. All this scared Russian and China with the prospect of final withdrawal of Central Asia from Moscow and Beijing's control. After, the two countries decided to announce the close union even it contradicts their earlier declared principals.

Russia and the People's Republic of China joined their effort to push Americans out of the region. In June, Uzbekistan, supported by Moscow and Beijing, announced the expiration of the U.S. military base on its territory. "The Mission for Peace 2005" is supposed to demonstrate that the mutual understanding between the two countries reached the level where China and Russia can both maintain joint control over the important strategic region of Eurasia. Also they are showing the world a new course to form "a multi-polar world." Taking into consideration the mistakes made by Americans who got overwhelmed with the idea of a "mono-polar world" the appearance of the new bloc between Russia and China is not surprising or particularly scary. The only problem is are the interests of the bloc participants the same?

According to the statements of Russian politicians and military leaders they perfectly understand that right now China is playing its own game and using Russian in it. But they think they can get a profit out of this game: to show Americans that against their mono-polar force there can be another one - multi-polar (or rather bi-polar). That hopefully will make Washington respect Moscow more and to offer equal dialog. However, this tactic has its own danger. If Moscow will get too involved in the play it risks showing itself as a member of a military-political union with Beijing and it would look like something similar to a Warsaw Pact. And in this "Pact" Moscow will play a role of the younger brother.

Also, the rumor on Chinese boards is that the Chinese found out just how backward they really were when compared to the Russians. The Russians wore armour all the time throughout the ex, including the airborne and amphibious phases, while the Chinese wore none. What pictures I've seen seems to confirm this.  There is also  a rumor that while the Russians jumped with full kit and were off and running immedietly after hitting the ground, the Chinese dropped their weapons (including rifles?!) seperately in crates and took much longer to get organized.

I'm thinking the CHinese blew their load on the shiny planes and ships and are neglecting the basic soldiering.

 

[paracowboy]

and are neglecting the basic soldiering.

I know very little about Chinese tactics (at least since the time of the Oceanic Khan), but this seems to be a recurring theme, doesn't it?

 

[Britney Spears]

I know very little about Chinese tactics (at least since the time of the Oceanic Khan), but this seems to be a recurring theme, doesn't it?

Hmm, how far back do you want to go? The PLA at the end of the civil war and during the Korean war, up to the late 1950s were a very professional force. and the air force and navy were getting good really quickly. But from the 60s to the 80s internal upheavals within China sapped a lot of their epirit de corps. The Air Force and Navy were hit harder than the Army, because of Lin Biao (The PLA commander in Korea)'s failed coup against Mao which were principally enginnered by Soviet-trained Navy and Air Force officers. The series of wars with Vietnam, in 1973 all the way until the early 80s, were mostly fiascos and proved how far behind the Chinese were. It's telling that most of the PLA's senior leadership today were majors and captains in those actions. there's a perhaps apocryphal story of how Deng Xiao Ping, after watching the Chinese-armed Iraqis in GW1, called a meeting of the senior PLA leadership and told them to un-fsuck themselves and quickly. THe US army was to be the original model and the Americans promised all kinds of weapons, Blackhawks, American engineers to upgrade old fighters, new raders, etc. But TianAnMen happened and the weapons that the Americans promised never showed up, except for that one sqdn of Blackhawks. 

So I think the pendulum is just swinging the other way, for now. The air force and navy are just making up for lost time. No one is interested in joining the infantry during peace time.

 

[Britney Spears]

I like how the official Chinese and Russian media calls the excecise a mock "UN sanctioned peacekeeping operation" with an enemy force of over 10,000 "terrorists",  though.

Do you think Carolyn Parrish would approve?

 

[Kirkhill]

The PLA at the end of the civil war and during the Korean war, up to the late 1950s were a very professional force.

Britney: I'm in the same boat as paracowboy re the Chinese army but by professional do you mean the army at large or just the officer corps. My sense of the Korean war tactics was the soldiers were used as bullet traps and overwhelmed the enemy by numbers.

No one is interested in joining the infantry during peace time.

Do you think this might be connected to my perception being shared by the citizenry?

Cheers.

 

[Britney Spears]

Britney: I'm in the same boat as paracowboy re the Chinese army but by professional do you mean the army at large or just the officer corps. My sense of the Korean war tactics was the soldiers were used as bullet traps and overwhelmed the enemy by numbers.

I believe this perception is inaccurate, but it would be a fairly lengthy discussion to cover all the details. Instead, I will throw out the fact that at no point during the Korean War did the total number of Chinese troops  in theatre significantly outnumber total UN forces and at a number of times they themselves were significantly outnumbered. There is this perception if you rely on "first hand" accounts from western soldiers, because the Chinese, especially during the initial offensive phases of their intervention in early 1951, always managed to achieve local superiority in numbers. This is due to superior fieldcraft and march discipline, and not actual numbers of troops. Since the Chinese were so vastly inferior in firepower, they had no option but to concentrate superior numbers on western formations. Sometimes it didn't work (Kapyong, Changjin Resevoir), most of the time it did. Western sources also often ignore or downplay casualty figures of South Korean units, who more often than not bore the brunt of Chinese offensive operations (The Chinese were no fools, and knew very well that South Korean Units were weak links in the chain) The "human wave" attack that the sgts on the MG course like to talk about might properly describe the British and Germans at the Somme, but the Chinese "human wave" is not much more than a myth.

Do you think this might be connected to my perception being shared by the citizenry?

Not really. It's the same in most third world countries. The Air Force and Navy are the Elite, while the Army is the place for peasants. They are trying to change this perception (see my previous China Threat posts) .

 

[Britney Spears]

Mr.Kirkhill et al, an additional point of interest:

Various histories of both the Chinese civil war and the Korean war point to the Chinese Eighth Route Army as the originator of the "fireteam" concept. That is, a grouping of 2 or 3 men, armed with a variety of weapons (Rifle, SMG, Automatic Rifle) that fomed the basic building block of modern western infantry sections. Most prominently, the writings of USMC Lt. Col. Evans F. Carlson, who learned of this idea while acting as an observer in China and who first adopted this organization into his Marine "Raider" battalion. Eventually the concept spread to the rest of the Army and the rest of the world.  Hopefully, with more research, I shall have a conclusive answer to the accuracy of this claim.

But please, back to the Sino-Russian excercise....

 

[edadian]

That fire team concept goes back before the Chinise civil war. It was part of the 1916 reorganization of the Canadian Army for Vimy Ridge.

Rifle grenadiers, mills bombers, trench gunners, riflemen and a Lewis gun team made up an infantry section.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks for bringing that information forward Britney.  Much appreciated.

Cheers.