Saluting Foreign Officers

[ChaosTheory]

I have been looking for an answer for this and Google and the forum search engines do not turn up an answer.

Are we in the Canadian Forces required to salute an officer of a foreign military that is higher ranked than ourselves?  And vice-versa, are Americans required to salute Canadian officers who are higher ranked than themselves?

I thought back in basic I was taught this is true, but talking with a Marine friend, she's saying that they are not required to salute us. 

I was hoping someone could shed some light on this. 

 

[Aerobicrunner]

I don't have an official answer for you, but  when I was stationed overseas as a Sgt with the US Navy, I always saluted the US officers.  Mind you I was also saluted a lot as well because my dress was tans which, in the US Navy, is Officer's (and CPO) dress.  With the gold coloured writing of Canada on the black shoulder apallettes looking like a bar and with the metal Sgt collar dogs, it was easy to have them confused.

 

[Silverfire]

From what I learned in basic, you do not need to salute foreign officers unless they have operational command but that being said, someone with more experience and knowledge can give a better answer.

 

[ModlrMike]

I'm not sure there's a specific regulation governing this. That being said, common practice is to salute those officers of foreign services who's ranks you recognize. There is also an expectation that when serving with foreign forces that you will familiarize yourself with their rank system. Some forces take this to extremes and salute every foreign soldier.

 

[Pusser]

It's a matter of courtesy, so yes you should salute higher ranking foreign officers.  In my experience, US Armed Forces personnel are very conscious of this and will most certainly salute Canadian officers of higher rank (provided they recognize it*).  I suspect that your Marine friend's superiors may have a different view of this than she does.

*This is not usually a big problem with US Navy personnel as their dress uniform officer rank badges are very similar to ours.  Canadian officers in NCD sometimes seem to cause confusion because in the USN, only seaman and petty officers used to wear light blue shirts with dark blue pants (now no one does).

Although QR&O 3.12 does not specifically address saluting, one may infer the requirement:

3.12 - SENIORITY OF PERSONNEL ATTACHED OR SECONDED TO THE CANADIAN FORCES

An officer or non-commissioned member of another Commonwealth force who is attached or seconded to the Canadian Forces shall have the same seniority in rank in the Canadian Forces as the member holds in the force to which the member belongs.

 

[Occam]

Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, A-PD-201-000/PT-000

Section 2

25. Courtesy Salutes

a. Foreign officers shall be saluted in the same
manner as Canadian officers unless the
circumstances clearly dictate otherwise.

 

[a_majoor]

While I can't speak for your Marine friend, my experience has been that we salute their officers, and they salute ours.

In my deployments in multinational environments, there have been fairly elaborate charts showing ranks and equivalencies posted everywhere, so you can quickly and easily identify who is whom, even obscure forces like the newly admitted Eastern European nations.

It is a bit more difficult to deal with cultural barriers, such as remembering  Americans salute with no headdress. It is probably best to be courtious, learn the rank insignia and salute when appropriate. If nothing else, it reflects well on you.

 

[Blackadder1916]

What does the US Army say . . .

Army Regulation 600–25    Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy

. . . . . .

1–3. Hand salutes and salutes with arms.

a. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
The practice of saluting officers in official vehicles (recognized individually by rank or identifying vehicle plates/flags)
is considered an appropriate courtesy and will be observed. Salutes are not required to be rendered by or to personnel
who are driving or riding in privately-owned vehicles except by gate guards who will render salutes to recognized
officers in all vehicles unless duties are of such a nature as to make the salute impractical. When military personnel are
acting as drivers of a moving vehicle they should not initiate a salute. Salutes are not required in public areas such as
theaters, outdoor athletic facilities, or other such situations when the act would be manifestly inappropriate or
impractical. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an appropriate greeting such as “Good Morning, Sir,”
is encouraged. Personnel will not salute indoors except when reporting to a superior officer. See section VII, chapter 4,
FM 21–13 for general rules on saluting.
b. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and between officers (commissioned and
warrant) and enlisted personnel. Salutes will be exchanged with personnel of the United States Army, the Navy, the Air
Force, the Marine Corps, and the Coast Guard entitled to the salute.
c. It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such. The Commander in Chief,
US Army, Europe and Seventh US Army; Commander, US Army, Japan; Commander, Eighth US Army; and the
Commander, US Army Communications Command are delegated the authority to establish policies for recognition
courtesies prevailing locally for foreign officials. This authority will not be delegated farther.
d. Civilians may be saluted by persons in uniform when appropriate, but the uniform hat or cap will not be raised as
a form of salutation.
e. Military personnel under arms will render the salute prescribed for the weapon with which they are armed,
whether or not that weapon ordinarily is prescribed as part of their equipment.
f. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned if either the senior or subordinate or both are in civilian attire.
g. Local commanders will carefully review saluting policies for their installations. Where considered desirable in
their judgment, they will develop and publish modified saluting policies for congested, student, or high density living
areas where saluting would be highly repetitious or otherwise infeasible.
h. Civilian personnel, including civilian guards, will not be required to render the hand salute to military personnel
or other civilian personnel.
. . . . . . .

The AR was the quickest to find and download, but I imagine that the regulations and orders of the other US uniformed services are similar in intent.  While my experience in this matter is decades old, American military pers usually saluted me when appropriate.  On two occasions when I was in the company of American SNCO/CPO and junior American pers failed to salute, they were quickly brought to task for their lapse in courtesy and the SNCO/CPOs apologized for the poor manners of their people.

It seemed that it was common practise for foreign officers in US organizations to wear equivalent US rank insignia; I did during my time at Fort Sam Houston.  That probably made it easier for the Americans down there to recognize my rank.  However, in Europe, it did not seem that difficult for them to recognize the rank insignia of the varied NATO militaries.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

What does the US Army say . . .

Army Regulation 600–25    Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy
The AR was the quickest to find and download, but I imagine that the regulations and orders of the other US uniformed services are similar in intent.  While my experience in this matter is decades old, American military pers usually saluted me when appropriate.  On two occasions when I was in the company of American SNCO/CPO and junior American pers failed to salute, they were quickly brought to task for their lapse in courtesy and the SNCO/CPOs apologized for the poor manners of their people.

It seemed that it was common practise for foreign officers in US organizations to wear equivalent US rank insignia; I did during my time at Fort Sam Houston.  That probably made it easier for the Americans down there to recognize my rank.  However, in Europe, it did not seem that difficult for them to recognize the rank insignia of the varied NATO militaries.

Who cares what the US says. I was taught, and agree with, that officers, of any foreign military force, rate a salute.

This whole thread is stupid in the extreme. An Officer gets saluted. Doesn't matter his training or country. If he gets saluted by his military, he gets saluted by ours.

If you're visiting a foreign base, it's incumbent on you, or your CoC, to educate you in the customs of the military you're visiting and to follow the same when you're there.

 

[Journeyman]

What he said.

There's a reason it's called "paying compliments."  It's not a burden; it's simple courtesy.

 

[armyvern]

True that.

The CSM in me cringes to think some believe it's 'optional'.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Who cares what the US says. . . . .

The OP, who desired some clarification about our and American saluting practices.

. . . . .  And vice-versa, are Americans required to salute Canadian officers who are higher ranked than themselves?

I thought back in basic I was taught this is true, but talking with a Marine friend, she's saying that they are not required to salute us. 

I was hoping someone could shed some light on this. 

The Marine friend, may "technically" be correct and depending on the circumstances (location, nationality and position of the foreign officer, other locally specific regulations) she could get away with not saluting a foreign officer.  But then again, I've also heard of Marines bitching that they shouldn't have to salute officers of the other services.  Note that the US Army regulation states only "customary" not "shall/will" as is the case for Canadian practice.

Edited for correction.

Your Marine friend is wrong.  With a little more research, I found something in US Navy Regulations Chapter 12 FLAGS, PENNANTS, HONORS, CEREMONIES AND CUSTOMS

Section 3. Hand Salutes and Other Marks of Respect
. . . . . .
1210. Occasions for Rendering Hand Salutes

1. Salutes shall be rendered by persons in the
naval service to officers of the armed services of
the United States, the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration, the Public Health
Service and foreign armed services.

. . . . .

"Persons in the naval service" includes US Marines.  Apparently, the US Navy differs from the US Army in letter of the law, however actual practice of saluting foreign officers is probably the same.

 

[captloadie]

I would gather that most CSMs would cringe if they ever visited my unit here overseas. They would be lucky to see most of the foreign officers wearing hats let alone paying compliments to each other. The going standard is we are all equal with the exception of the director (unless you are the French or Germans, their LCols seem to thing that it is still alright to treat the NCMs like personal attendants). When I want back to Borden for a month long course, it actually took awhile to get back into the swing of squinting my eyes up to try and read the impossible to see ranks in the early moring dusk.

 

[armyvern]

I would gather that most CSMs would cringe if they ever visited my unit here overseas. They would be lucky to see most of the foreign officers wearing hats let alone paying compliments to each other. The going standard is we are all equal with the exception of the director (unless you are the French or Germans, their LCols seem to thing that it is still alright to treat the NCMs like personal attendants). When I want back to Borden for a month long course, it actually took awhile to get back into the swing of squinting my eyes up to try and read the impossible to see ranks in the early moring dusk.

I have no issues with foreign military dress --- their dress regs aren't ours. It seemed to me that the IDF only wore headdress while in buildings, the Syrians never, the french tucked up under their epaulette 24/7, etc etc. Mileage may vary.

But, as per the regulations quoted down below, it is possible to designate a 'non-saluting' zone, protocol etc that is situational dependent. Such as in a battle, in the field etc. If that's what they've got going on at your current location, good on them. Bad on their treatment of the lower ranks though for those applicable nations.

I'm just glad I'm not in China where they'd make me wear a mini-skirted uniform and knee high boots that do NOT have heels. 

 

[Journeyman]

Some taskings authorize/require civie attire. After a couple of months in-theatre working with the same people, I crossed paths with a Canadian troop who recognized me and saluted. The Marine I was walking with actually stopped and said, "you're an officer?"

From him, I took it as a compliment. 

 

[armyvern]

...
From him, I took it as a compliment. 

Well you should too. After having known you for far too many years now, I'd still salute you if I ever saw you in uniform while NOT inside a bar. Just saying.  >

 

[Journeyman]

It's so seldom that I wear a uniform inside a bar 

 

[Jimmy_D]

For all of those who deal with NATO nations that have no clue what the ranks of other nations mean.

https://www.natoschool.nato.int/multimedia.asp

 

[JSR OP]

What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.

 

[George Wallace]

From what I learned in basic, you do not need to salute foreign officers unless they have operational command but that being said, someone with more experience and knowledge can give a better answer.

I'm not sure there's a specific regulation governing this. That being said, common practice is to salute those officers of foreign services who's ranks you recognize. There is also an expectation that when serving with foreign forces that you will familiarize yourself with their rank system. Some forces take this to extremes and salute every foreign soldier.

I can't believe I actually read those posts.  What are they teaching these days?  It sure reflects poorly on the caliber of our instructors, or are you just not fully comprehending what was taught?  There are times and place where paying a compliment are done, and where paying a compliment is not done.  One does not usually perform "Sniper Checks" with well liked superiors in the "battle zone", however, in Garrison conditions one would pay a smart compliment to all officers.  (Sometimes you may have to bite your upper/lower lip, but .....)