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Self Defence in Canada (split from Gun Control 2.0)

Remember that our former Public Safety Minister Bill Blair famously stated in 2020 that "Canadians do not arm themselves for protection from their fellow citizens" or words to that effect. Former Chretien-era Liberal Justice Minister Allan Rock also stated that the he "came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in Canada that should have guns are police officers and soldiers" as well as noting that self defence was not a legitimate reason for owning a firearm in Canada. Despite that those statements were made in the context of gun control, they helped strengthen the narrative around self defence away from "arming oneself" in any form.
Don’t forget with the firearms act creation they also banned less lethal alternatives such as pepper spray and tasers from the public. They really don’t want people to be able to present any sort of defence for themselves.

It is interesting the logic behind it all. For example we need smoke alarms in case of a fire (no guarantee it will happen). We need to wear seatbelts in case of a car accident (no guarantee it will happen). But if you wish to plan and prepare for your defence against someone attacking you, you are in the wrong by Canadian standards.

Hell even if you do everything right you will be punished by process. Look at Ian Thompson, he was still fighting though the courts well the guy who literally tried to kill him and his family was released. Legally he could have shot and killed the attacker but he chose restraint instead and was still punished.
 
Don’t forget with the firearms act creation they also banned less lethal alternatives such as pepper spray and tasers from the public. They really don’t want people to be able to present any sort of defence for themselves.

It is interesting the logic behind it all. For example we need smoke alarms in case of a fire (no guarantee it will happen). We need to wear seatbelts in case of a car accident (no guarantee it will happen). But if you wish to plan and prepare for your defence against someone attacking you, you are in the wrong by Canadian standards.

Hell even if you do everything right you will be punished by process. Look at Ian Thompson, he was still fighting though the courts well the guy who literally tried to kill him and his family was released. Legally he could have shot and killed the attacker but he chose restraint instead and was still punished.

Good post!
 
Don’t forget with the firearms act creation they also banned less lethal alternatives such as pepper spray and tasers from the public. They really don’t want people to be able to present any sort of defence for themselves.
Several states down here ban some or many Less Lethal options. The issue with LL is they are a tool, not THE tool. LL options are good for LE because a most of LEO engagement with the public isn’t at a lethal force situation. Not all are great for civilians.

Less Lethal options take a lot of time to become proficient with. Most LE academies have multiple sessions with different LL tools, and then scenarios to test students in the appropriate application.
Then there is continuing training with those.

Most non LEO’s do not have 2 weeks to be able to conduct annual, or biannual (depending on entity) refresher and recertification.

Improper use of LL tools can be a major issue, either from unintentional lethal response or disabling themselves.


I’m not anti civilian ownership and usage of LL items, but like a firearm the individual needs to be trained, and should seek refresher training routinely.

I know several folks who’ve accidentally tased themselves or OV sprayed themselves (or their partners) as well as seen batons that won’t extend as they are either bent or rusted, and those are sworn full time LEO’s.

A lot of LL tools get a bad wrap in Hollywood as a tool of kidnappers or other ‘bad guys’, as stun guns, Saps/blackjacks are often used to subdue people in movies and TV shows, it appears a lot of Canadian Laws for various restrictions are based on irrational fears, as opposed to an actual logical look at what those items offer.

Oddly I can’t see where a LL launcher like a 37mm, PepperBall (impact only without the OC) FN303 (impact only without OC) would not be legal (albeit not really the easiest less lethal systems to carry on one’s person.

The major issue I have with Canada’s laws are many effective self defense options put one at jeopardy (outside of the home) for carrying a weapon dangerous to the public (or whatever that is called) or are downright prohibited weapons.

It is interesting the logic behind it all. For example we need smoke alarms in case of a fire (no guarantee it will happen). We need to wear seatbelts in case of a car accident (no guarantee it will happen). But if you wish to plan and prepare for your defence against someone attacking you, you are in the wrong by Canadian standards.
Canada has some very unusual opinions on personal freedom and security.
Canadians are generally very fortunate that Canada is so relatively peaceful and safe.

Hell even if you do everything right you will be punished by process. Look at Ian Thompson, he was still fighting though the courts well the guy who literally tried to kill him and his family was released. Legally he could have shot and killed the attacker but he chose restraint instead and was still punished.
I wasn’t familiar with the case, and only read some highlights so I won’t say I’m super knowledgeable on it c but that seems to be a case of Political motivated charges. The Crown apparently said they had to pursue charges, even though they had no real case (the safe storage argument, that his firearms were too close to his bedroom is absolutely insane). That said it seems the precedent in that case has settled the fact one can have a firearm with ammunition in a safe within easy access.

Terrible he had to go through that.
 
Oddly I can’t see where a LL launcher like a 37mm, PepperBall (impact only without the OC) FN303 (impact only without OC) would not be legal (albeit not really the easiest less lethal systems to carry on one’s person.

How about these?


*With the HUGE caveat that one could probably still cause grievous injury or death with this and is not a “non-lethal” panacea.
 
How about these?


*With the HUGE caveat that one could probably still cause grievous injury or death with this and is not a “non-lethal” panacea.
Main issue with them is they are discharged from a 12ga shotgun. Which is a firearm under Canadian law, the others have velocities that don’t consider them a firearm. The same reason that I discounted a 40mm Launcher, as those used to be nothings, but changed (just prior to me selling the M203 and HK AG/C (similar to the M320) in Canada.

If one planned to run it exclusively as a LL tool, then one would want it in a clearly distinctive coloring, and never mix live ammunition with it. I’m not a fan of 12ga for LL roles as while 12ga pump shotguns are plentiful, it is very easy to get ammunition mixed up unless it is easily identifiable and stored in a different location than a live 12ga.

Frankly any situation that would have a civilian firing a LL stand off device is most likely one that would more prudently be firing live ammo - as less lethal is not non lethal, and especially from a 12ga shotgun I personally see that being viewed a lethal force, and without certification from the ammunition company, one is probably looking at a lengthy and expensive date with the courts.

Many parts of the body change their status depending on range with the stand off impact less lethal devices, so one would want to ensure certification and currency before employing.
 
Those cabelas 12 gauge rubber slugs are travelling at twice the speed of a traditional 40mm projectile (650 fps average). Feet per second isn’t the only consideration but it’s a good first stop.

40mm gel and foam are around 290 feet per second over a larger surface area (and there is a round 30% less than that) and bean bags falling between 230 to 300 feet per second.

Pepperball can be upwards of 450 but more in the 380 range. (And are designed to “give way” when it comes to delivering energy)

That 12 gauge rubber slug has considerable lethality compared to any other less lethal.
 
Those cabelas 12 gauge rubber slugs are travelling at twice the speed of a traditional 40mm projectile (650 fps average). Feet per second isn’t the only consideration but it’s a good first stop.

40mm gel and foam are around 290 feet per second over a larger surface area (and there is a round 30% less than that) and bean bags falling between 230 to 300 feet per second.

Pepperball can be upwards of 450 but more in the 380 range. (And are designed to “give way” when it comes to delivering energy)

That 12 gauge rubber slug has considerable lethality compared to any other less lethal.

A 'less lethal' mixed legacy...

 

I saw this the other day, What are your guys thoughts on it? Not allowed for self defense in Canada but it looks like it may be useful for a LEO.
 
Main issue with them is they are discharged from a 12ga shotgun. Which is a firearm under Canadian law, the others have velocities that don’t consider them a firearm. The same reason that I discounted a 40mm Launcher, as those used to be nothings, but changed (just prior to me selling the M203 and HK AG/C (similar to the M320) in Canada.

If one planned to run it exclusively as a LL tool, then one would want it in a clearly distinctive coloring, and never mix live ammunition with it. I’m not a fan of 12ga for LL roles as while 12ga pump shotguns are plentiful, it is very easy to get ammunition mixed up unless it is easily identifiable and stored in a different location than a live 12ga.

Frankly any situation that would have a civilian firing a LL stand off device is most likely one that would more prudently be firing live ammo - as less lethal is not non lethal, and especially from a 12ga shotgun I personally see that being viewed a lethal force, and without certification from the ammunition company, one is probably looking at a lengthy and expensive date with the courts.

Many parts of the body change their status depending on range with the stand off impact less lethal devices, so one would want to ensure certification and currency before employing.

Those cabelas 12 gauge rubber slugs are travelling at twice the speed of a traditional 40mm projectile (650 fps average). Feet per second isn’t the only consideration but it’s a good first stop.

40mm gel and foam are around 290 feet per second over a larger surface area (and there is a round 30% less than that) and bean bags falling between 230 to 300 feet per second.

Pepperball can be upwards of 450 but more in the 380 range. (And are designed to “give way” when it comes to delivering energy)

That 12 gauge rubber slug has considerable lethality compared to any other less lethal.

Yes, I’m sure hitting a bear in the ass with one of those is considerably different from hitting a human in the ass. Especially at closed distances like inside a house.

Even though they are clearly marked “wildlife control”, I wonder how many people are buying those for home defence? 🤦‍♂️
 
Yes, I’m sure hitting a bear in the ass with one of those is considerably different from hitting a human in the ass. Especially at closed distances like inside a house.

Even though they are clearly marked “wildlife control”, I wonder how many people are buying those for home defence? 🤦‍♂️
based off where I find them? A lot of people aren’t buying them for bears
 

I saw this the other day, What are your guys thoughts on it? Not allowed for self defense in Canada but it looks like it may be useful for a LEO.
Honestly man, I have about 6 layers of less lethal options for folks in Crisis and multiple types of armour- even for guys on the road depending on where they are.

Theres actually a point where all this works against us because it makes everyone slow at making timely decisions- which creates it’s own set of consequences for the public,

I don’t need to be adding stuff to guys firearms, expecting one thing- “oops this time it didn’t work the way it was supposed to”, or I thought I was the less lethal add on guy etc

Holding a gun for lethal. Holding a less lethal launcher for less lethal. I don’t think it’s a good idea to start cross pollinating our different systems.

Clean lanes.

🤷‍♀️

Some times we have to shoot people. No matter how Many net guns etc people make
 

I saw this the other day, What are your guys thoughts on it? Not allowed for self defense in Canada but it looks like it may be useful for a LEO.
Oof, no. God no. Our handgun is our last line of lethal defence. I don’t want anything changing the characteristics of it, the manipulations of it, or anything about our thinking vis a vis what we expect and intend it to do. It needs to do the same thing every time, including at 4 am when the cop’s third can of Monster has worn off, they already adrenaline-dumped from the hot call earlier in the night, and they’re sleepfucked and just begging for shift to end.

Booter’s an actual expert in this; I’m just a cop with training on several of the options and some basic instructor level stuff. I’ll defer to him on any of this, but in this instance we look to be aligned. I’m of the opinion that an option we must treat as lethal, and an option we intend to be non-lethal, should be entirely distinct and should not be the same object in hand. I also like them being bright colours- more noticeable on video, more noticeable by witnesses.
 
I like the spirit of all this stuff. There’s been a few iterations of this device I don’t think any have been super successful, there is one city that deployed them in the states- I’ll see if I can find the document
 
I like the spirit of all this stuff. There’s been a few iterations of this device I don’t think any have been super successful, there is one city that deployed them in the states- I’ll see if I can find the document
Don’t get me wrong; the notion of a bad guy taking essentially an inert rifle grenade in the nards amuses the hell out of me. It’s just a bad idea for most of the reasons that don’t involve me laughing at someone’s transformation into Testiclops.
 
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