Self Defence in Canada (split from Gun Control 2.0)

[Jarnhamar]

It would be nice if victims of home invasion who are charged with offenses could avoid being on the hook for court costs until they're found guilty in court.

 

[dapaterson]

It would be nice if victims of home invasion who are charged with offenses could avoid being on the hook for court costs until they're found guilty in court.

Why only people accused of home invasion? (By court costs I assume you mean the cost of a legal defence, which is easily in the low six figures if it goes to trial - or the mid five figures if it does not).

 

[Jarnhamar]

Why only people accused of home invasion?

Good question. Because someone is making a conscious decision to enter into their home, likely to either steal from them or assault them. They're being put into that position by someone else. A police officer has discretion to charge or not, maybe they flip a coin and decide to lay charges. That's a lot of money for a home owner. Especially when a civil suit against the home invader probably won't cover the bills (and be additional money).


An alternative, though obviously unlikely, would be some kind of home invasion clause with someone's home insurance.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Good question. Because someone is making a conscious decision to enter into their home, likely to either steal from them or assault them. They're being put into that position by someone else. A police officer has discretion to charge or not, maybe they flip a coin and decide to lay charges. That's a lot of money home a home owner. Especially when a civil suit against the home invader probably won't cover the bills (and be additional money).


An alternative, though obviously unlikely, would be some kind of home invasion clause with someone's home insurance.

Something else that costs the homeowner, through no fault of their own, when the home invader sues the homeowner.

 

[Haggis]

There was another home invasion in my county last February in which the victims did use a firearm (possibly that of the intruders, but it's unconfirmed) resulting in the deaths of two of three intruders. No charges have been laid to date and the victims, who were initially taken into custody, were released unconditionally. The third intruder has not been apprehended.

 

[brihard]

The Kawartha Lakes Police Chief was quoted saying the charges were laid because the force use has to be proportional and reasonable. If you read the info at the link I posted yesterday, you would see that he is wrong. The test now is was the force used reasonable. The need for proportionality in response to an assault is gone. The other aspect to consider is did the victim's use of force continue after the intruder no longer posed a credible threat?

34(1)(c) establishes the reasonableness requirement. 34(2) lists the things to be statutorily considered in assessing reasonableness, which is an ‘in its totality’ question. ‘Proportionality’ is listed under 34(2)(g). Grossly disproportionate force is generally not going to be able to be reasonable.

As more is coming out in rumour form I’m more and more curious about the details of what actually happened.

 

[Haggis]

34(1)(c) establishes the reasonableness requirement. 34(2) lists the things to be statutorily considered in assessing reasonableness, which is an ‘in its totality’ question. ‘Proportionality’ is listed under 34(2)(g). Grossly disproportionate force is generally not going to be able to be reasonable.

As more is coming out in rumour form I’m more and more curious about the details of what actually happened.

My wife and I went through a trial in 2016 where the question of proportionality was a key issue. (I can write of this as one party is now deceased and I have no idea where the other party is or if they are still alive.) In that case we had both witnessed a small statured lady with a large kitchen knife defending against fairly large empty handed male who had already struck her. No one suffered an significant injury. 34(2)(g) was considered, for sure. Both were frequent flyers in the justice system with long histories of substance abuse, DV with each other and were under conditions at the time of this assault. 34(2)(e) and (f) outweighed 34(2)(g). In the end, the assault charges under 265(1)(b) were dropped and both pled guilty to breach of probation (733.1(1)(b)). That lady had a horseshoe strategically inserted somewhere.

I'm super curious, too, but more so about the local case I noted above as the rumour mill was on fire for weeks afterwards and I would drive by the scene every day commuting to/from work.

I know that this is a "Gun Control" thread and, thankfully, for political reasons, no firearm was used in the Lindsay case. Perhaps a thread on Self Defence Law in Canada would be good one to start?

 

[brihard]

Would you mind doing another that rides right up to that line, call it 6-5 in favour of not charging?

Sorry, I blew by this by accident, not intentionally. I’m going to hold off on that though. Too subjective, and my level of confidence decreases as we get closer to the edge cases. I don’t want to lead anyone astray. We can look to the courts for those cases.

 

[Good2Golf]

Thread for splitting Self-Defence in Canada from the Gun Control 2.0 thread.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Sorry, I blew by this by accident, not intentionally. I’m going to hold off on that though. Too subjective, and my level of confidence decreases as we get closer to the edge cases. I don’t want to lead anyone astray. We can look to the courts for those cases.

Completely understood, thanks for your earlier answer

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ian Runkle has an interesting video on this topic and case.

 

[mariomike]

, not realizing those online comments could come back and bite them should they find themselves in a similar situation to Jeremy McDonald, the resident.

Sounds like sensible advice.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... the home invader was armed with a crossbow ...

So far, only TorSun that I can find says a crossbow was found ...

WARMINGTON: Ford offers support for man charged after defending himself from alleged intruder

Jeremy McDonald may be the person to test laws governing just how far someone can go when protecting themselves against an armed intruder?

torontosun.com

... with this bit of detail:

... Sources told the Sun the alleged intruder — with two accomplices — made his way into McDonald’s apartment through his “daughter’s bedroom window” and McDonald awoke to the image of a man with a lethal weapon in his doorway ...

Meanwhile The Canadian Press has this overview (also archived here) ....

Fact File: Canadians can defend against home invaders, but force must be 'reasonable'

Assault charges laid by a local police service against a man in Lindsay, Ont. — whose altercation with an alleged home intruder left the intruder with life-threatening injuries — sparked

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

... based on quotes from this guy, who appears to have done research on self-defence law in Canada

Noah Weisbord

Associate Professor New Chancellor Day Hall 3644 Peel Street Room 616 Montreal, Quebec Canada H3A 1W9 514-399-9447 [Office] Email Biography Noah Weisbord is an Associate Professor at McGill Law. His research focuses on the role of the criminal law in managing, reflecting, or exacerbating...

www.mcgill.ca

Clip from the piece ...

... with more @ the links - caveat lector, as usual.

 

[suffolkowner]

It would be nice if victims of home invasion who are charged with offenses could avoid being on the hook for court costs until they're found guilty in court.

Why only people accused of home invasion? (By court costs I assume you mean the cost of a legal defence, which is easily in the low six figures if it goes to trial - or the mid five figures if it does not).

hard to see just limiting it to home invasions?
Then the Crown would reimburse the legal costs on every acquittal?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Home owner in his 40s is woken up at 3am to an intruder armed with a weapon standing in his bedroom door way. The intruder entered into the home with 2 accomplices through the daughters windows.

I could see police laying charges if the home owner hacked up the intruder(s) if they were running away. If the homeowner just went too far during the altercation though? I know I wouldn't be concerned about reasonable force in that situation.

 

[suffolkowner]

Home owner in his 40s is woken up at 3am to an intruder armed with a weapon standing in his bedroom door way. The intruder entered into the home with 2 accomplices through the daughters windows.

I could see police laying charges if the home owner hacked up the intruder(s) if they were running away. If the homeowner just went too far during the altercation though? I know I wouldn't be concerned about reasonable force in that situation.

yeah lots of rumours about this one. I read on the internet that the homeowner was hit on the head with the butt of the crossbow?
He must have hacked the hell out of the guy? Which begs the question is how many hacks is too much?

 

[Jarnhamar]

hard to see just limiting it to home invasions?
Then the Crown would reimburse the legal costs on every acquittal?

Great counter point.

I don't know; if police kick in your door at 3am with a no-knock warrant (do we do those in Canada?), have the wrong house, and shoot you by accident, you're probably going to be compensated monetarily one way or another.

If you're minding your own business at home and get attacked at 3am and overreact (because waking upto armed intruders isn't a reasonable situation) it feels unfair someone's life savings might be spent in court to say nope not guilty.

You're right though it opens up the argument for a thousand other situations of being reimbursed.

 

[suffolkowner]

Great counter point.

I don't know; if police kick in your door at 3am with a no-knock warrant (do we do those in Canada?), have the wrong house, and shoot you by accident, you're probably going to be compensated monetarily one way or another.

If you're minding your own business at home and get attacked at 3am and overreact (because waking upto armed intruders isn't a reasonable situation) it feels unfair someone's life savings might be spent in court to say nope not guilty.

You're right though it opens up the argument for a thousand other situations of being reimbursed.

Im not saying im against it because sometimes i definitely think the acquitted should be compensated but...it opens up lots of questions

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Great counter point.

I don't know; if police kick in your door at 3am with a no-knock warrant (do we do those in Canada?), have the wrong house, and shoot you by accident, you're probably going to be compensated monetarily one way or another.

If you're minding your own business at home and get attacked at 3am and overreact (because waking upto armed intruders isn't a reasonable situation) it feels unfair someone's life savings might be spent in court to say nope not guilty.

You're right though it opens up the argument for a thousand other situations of being reimbursed.

As I recall, police did a no-knock warrant on a house with a family in it. Father thought it was a rival gang, told daughter to call 911 and then shot a undercover cop who burst into the room armed with a service pistol. Homeowner was charged with murder, but successfully argued self-defense, as he believed that they "rival gang" might murder him and his family. I think one of the key elements was that they called 911. This is all by memory, so I might have gotten some detail wrong.

 

[KevinB]

Home owner in his 40s is woken up at 3am to an intruder armed with a weapon standing in his bedroom door way. The intruder entered into the home with 2 accomplices through the daughters windows.

I could see police laying charges if the home owner hacked up the intruder(s) if they were running away. If the homeowner just went too far during the altercation though? I know I wouldn't be concerned about reasonable force in that situation.

Down here Disparity of Force has enough precedents that it can be a very good tool for measuring reasonability in UoF cases.
Basically physical size disparity or numbers of assailants lower the bar for the use of lethal force for personal protection.

Three intruders have the ability to easily overpower one person, so the home owner could justify using lethal force if the invaders attacked once confronted. Based on some case law I’ve seen unless it’s a lot more than 3, the courts don’t like homeowners ambushing people so opening fire without a challenge is right out. There was a case in Kentucky several years ago when 11 young teenagers swarmed an individual and his significant other, and he gunned 4 down without warning, and his force was deemed justified due to the nature of the attack and the number of them.

OFC our gun laws (in many states) allow for Concealed Carry and reasonable storage at the home - so weapons are much more easily accessible for defense.