Self Defence in Canada (split from Gun Control 2.0)

[lenaitch]

I've noticed that in the past. I thought their external ID used to say 'federal agent". Maybe they decided that 'police' is damned near universally rcognized, even in non-roman alphabet countries.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

21ft rule is terrible. Most LE from a L3 holster cannot get off shots on an average physical ability attacker at 30ft - that is in training where the LEO knows they are going to be attacked.

That's my point Kev. What do you do in a 10ft hallway?

 

[Halifax Tar]

That's my point Kev. What do you do in a 10ft hallway?

FIX... BAYONETS!

 

[KevinB]

That's my point Kev. What do you do in a 10ft hallway?

Frag out ?




The 21ft foot concept was predicated on a knife armed attacker versus LEO w/ holstered pistol, not a defender at the ready.
Each situation will be different, what I’m comfortable with based on training, experience and available resources will be different than others.

 

[KevinB]

Double Tapped

 

[Genetk44]

An excerpt from this story —-> MSN


“ Khill was initially acquitted by a jury, but this was overturned by the Ontario Court of Appeal and a new trial was ordered. Khill appealed this ruling to the Supreme Court of Canada, but was denied by a majority of the court (only Justice Suzanne Côté sided with him). He was tried a second time, only for it to end in a mistrial. He was convicted after his third trial, and the judge read him a sentence of eight years in 2023 — from a page meant for a different offender. Khill’s actual sentence was supposed to be six years, and this wasn’t rectified until 2024.”

 

[KevinB]

An excerpt from this story —-> MSN


“ Khill was initially acquitted by a jury, but this was overturned by the Ontario Court of Appeal and a new trial was ordered. Khill appealed this ruling to the Supreme Court of Canada, but was denied by a majority of the court (only Justice Suzanne Côté sided with him). He was tried a second time, only for it to end in a mistrial. He was convicted after his third trial, and the judge read him a sentence of eight years in 2023 — from a page meant for a different offender. Khill’s actual sentence was supposed to be six years, and this wasn’t rectified until 2024.”

I have a lot of reservations about this case.
Yes I agree that the best COA would have been to dial 911 first.
However when things go bump in the night, many people who have some training will often opt to check it out prior to calling the Police.
That can be due to one, some or all of the following:
Feeling they can handle the situation, and/or
Not wanting to burden the Police, and/or
Knowing LE response to a noise report is slower than that of an intruder, and wanting to verify first.

I have many issues with the SCC Decision:
There are a lot of guns in Canada, in fact until the 90's there where more guns per capita in Canada than the US (let that one sink in).
Criminals are often armed, and getting illegal guns isn't that hard if one really wants one in either Canada or the US.

The fact that the defendant believed the member was armed with a firearm due to their stance seems to have been easily dismissed by the court.
Now, personally I think that if you are going to confront a potentially armed intruder, it behooves you to be able to get PID on the individual - so some sort of visual augmentation is required, from Night Vision to White Light.

Unless you are taking fire - you cannot simply shoot every potential threat.

 

[brihard]

I have a lot of reservations about this case.
Yes I agree that the best COA would have been to dial 911 first.
However when things go bump in the night, many people who have some training will often opt to check it out prior to calling the Police.
That can be due to one, some or all of the following:
Feeling they can handle the situation, and/or
Not wanting to burden the Police, and/or
Knowing LE response to a noise report is slower than that of an intruder, and wanting to verify first.

I have many issues with the SCC Decision:
There are a lot of guns in Canada, in fact until the 90's there where more guns per capita in Canada than the US (let that one sink in).
Criminals are often armed, and getting illegal guns isn't that hard if one really wants one in either Canada or the US.

The fact that the defendant believed the member was armed with a firearm due to their stance seems to have been easily dismissed by the court.
Now, personally I think that if you are going to confront a potentially armed intruder, it behooves you to be able to get PID on the individual - so some sort of visual augmentation is required, from Night Vision to White Light.

Unless you are taking fire - you cannot simply shoot every potential threat.

Khill also tried to claim he was acting on training he received in CAF… As a PRes SigOp. I doubt he ever did any training remotely close to that scenario.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have a lot of reservations about this case.
Yes I agree that the best COA would have been to dial 911 first.
However when things go bump in the night, many people who have some training will often opt to check it out prior to calling the Police.
That can be due to one, some or all of the following:
Feeling they can handle the situation, and/or
Not wanting to burden the Police, and/or
Knowing LE response to a noise report is slower than that of an intruder, and wanting to verify first.

Agreed on all points.

I have many issues with the SCC Decision:
There are a lot of guns in Canada, in fact until the 90's there where more guns per capita in Canada than the US (let that one sink in).
Criminals are often armed, and getting illegal guns isn't that hard if one really wants one in either Canada or the US.

Right now is suspected there is no less than 7million privately owned firearms in Canada. But no one really knows; and I, for one, would like to keep it that way.

Google Search

 

[Haggis]

The 21ft foot concept was predicated on a knife armed attacker versus LEO w/ holstered pistol, not a defender at the ready.
Each situation will be different, what I’m comfortable with based on training, experience and available resources will be different than others.

It's also highly unlikely that an armed homeowner, particularly in Canada, would be confronting an intruder with a holstered handgun. Most likely a long gun or impact weapon.

 

[KevinB]

Khill also tried to claim he was acting on training he received in CAF… As a PRes SigOp. I doubt he ever did any training remotely close to that scenario.

Well you never know, some armories are in sketchy areas of town
Had it been a CP with Radios and Crypto in it, he may have had a case.

It's also highly unlikely that an armed homeowner, particularly in Canada, would be confronting an intruder with a holstered handgun. Most likely a long gun or impact weapon.

Agreed.


My primary point to make to people is that Lethal Force for Self Defense is designed to be an option of last resort, by taking a life that was trying to take your's or another's.
The Expert Witnesses who will testify (either for or against the defendant) are likely to be current or former LEO's. Given that, one needs to be cognizant of what expectations and requirements for the use of lethal force are in your jurisdiction, and to CY6.

An once of prevention is worth more than a pound in cure...

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's also highly unlikely that an armed homeowner, particularly in Canada, would be confronting an intruder with a holstered handgun. Most likely a long gun or impact weapon.

Stats may dispute that.

I have expect that ratio would be similar in home invasions as well. I do stand to be corrected though.

Google Search

Firearms and violent crime in Canada, 2023

This Juristat article examines the nature and prevalence of firearm-related violent crime in Canada. Recent trends in firearm-related violent crime are presented at the national, provincial/territorial and census metropolitan area levels, as well as for urban and rural regions.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[brihard]

Stats may dispute that.

I have expect that ratio would be similar in home invasions as well. I do stand to be corrected though.

Google Search

Firearms and violent crime in Canada, 2023

This Juristat article examines the nature and prevalence of firearm-related violent crime in Canada. Recent trends in firearm-related violent crime are presented at the national, provincial/territorial and census metropolitan area levels, as well as for urban and rural regions.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

He’s talking about in the context of a homeowner arming themselves in anticipation of self defence against an intruder, and specifically he was relying to a comment about the 21 foot rule which is based on a police officer with a holstered sidearm responding to a sudden deadly threat. I think Haggis is correct- an armed homeowner probably isn’t going to have a holstered pistol. Whatever they have should be in their hands.

 

[Halifax Tar]

He’s talking about in the context of a homeowner arming themselves in anticipation of self defence against an intruder, and specifically he was relying to a comment about the 21 foot rule which is based on a police officer with a holstered sidearm responding to a sudden deadly threat. I think Haggis is correct- an armed homeowner probably isn’t going to have a holstered pistol. Whatever they have should be in their hands.

Gotcha, I misunderstood. @Haggis mea culpa.

 

[Genetk44]

I’m no expert in any of these issues….just a regular 70 year old civvy. It just bothers me and seems wrong that 1) a homeowner who is confronted by a housebreaker at night/early morning, very often woken from a sound sleep, has to worry almost as much about the governments reaction to his/her decisions as to the villians actions. It seems to me that just the act of entering a private home after dark and especially during hours when the homeowner is most likely asleep and presumably most helpless is automatic grounds for use of force including deadly force.