Sick Leave ( merged )

[Nfld Sapper]

Yep. That's why "X" isn't allowed to call in sick anymore.

Not one of your troopies would s/he be?

 

[CountDC]

Here we can call in 2 days and it is tracked.  No need to use "stupidity" on everyone.  By tracking you quickly screen out who is abusing and place the restrictions on them. If they want to complain - too bad, you have the records to show what may be a pattern of abuse. Mind you we are all old farts and most are field and general officers.

 

[helpup]

I give it another month here before we go back to being able to call in.  In our case since we are the rear party for the deployed crew we wound up having allot of young soldiers and a very high amount of those who were deemed " trouble".  To nip the abuse in the bud we went for a total ban and even that took some time to get through some heads. Much the same for those assuming that Short Days are a entitlement.

We do track but not to the level of the CO/OC it is kept at Pl level ( I do like the idea of forwarding it up to a central link but getting them to agree with it has not gotten any results yet) Part of my normal PDR briefs is also discussing the amount of Sick Chits, time off and short days taken. When someone has a inordinate amount of either compared to the average they tend to be counseled for it.  Especially since our Coy will be ramping up for 0110 in the next couple of months.  If they find it hard to stay healthy in garrison they are really not painting a healthy picture of themselves for people we want to deploy with.

 

[armyvern]

If they find it hard to stay healthy in garrison they are really not painting a healthy picture of themselves for people we want to deploy with.

Ain't that a fact.

 

[angrypanda83]

Just a few questions for the folks on the board.

So I was reading the CF leave manual today, because I'm sicker than a dog. The policy of the squadron at the moment is that if you're sick, goto the MIR and get a chit... Makes sense... Follows the orders, and that's what the military is run on.

But what if you've got kids to look after, no vehicle, or you can't make it?

I'm a shift worker, and I'm on afternoons this week... As I was reading the leave manual it said that the CO can grant 2 days...

Now are these two days at his discretion or is it the responsibility of the sergeant to speak on his behalf?

This has been an ongoing problem, especially with it being cold and flu season... I've seen guys working on the plane, drugged up on medication, because they're not able to get a day off to try and recuperate.  I also understand that people abuse the sick days, and take them on days when they're not sick...

Really I'm hoping that a few Mcpls and Sgt's on this forum could help me understand this reasoning they have... It used to be, if you're sick, take a day off... If you're sick for more than one day, goto the MIR and get a chit, because you're a lot sicker than you realized, or you may need a few more days.

It sucks because my g/f works in the morning, and I don't feel like lugging my son into the MIR (who's also sick) and wait 3-4 hours to be seen, and only given an afternoon shift off...

Thanks for the input lads, I appreciate it. 

p.s And if anyone has some suggestions I could pass up my CoC it'd be appreciated. I'd like to get the ball rolling on this, because someone's going to get hurt... We work on 250 million dollar aircraft, and having a foggy mind could lead to some pretty serious repercussions.

inb4 stop whining air force pansy. 

 

[ModlrMike]

The two days "call in sick" has always been at the discretion of the unit CO. Some control it tightly requiring members to go to the MIR, some more loosely. Your unit seems to fall into the more tightly group. I suggest you go to the MIR today, and when you're back at work, inquire as to the formal policy. That way you won't have to face this dilemma again. You challenges outside the military have little to do with your requirement to report for duty.

 

[Stoker]

The two days "call in sick" has always been at the discretion of the unit CO. Some control it tightly requiring members to go to the MIR, some more loosely. Your unit seems to fall into the more tightly group. I suggest you go to the MIR today, and when you're back at work, inquire as to the formal policy. That way you won't have to face this dilemma again. You challenges outside the military have little to do with your requirement to report for duty.

Interesting if one of my guys call in sick that's generally not a problem as I don't want guys around to spread their sickness about. If its more than one day or I suspect its something else I have them come in to MIR.

As a supervisor I would be more worried about forcing someone who is sick and heavily medicated to drive in and potentially getting in an accident.

 

[DAA]

I also understand that people abuse the sick days, and take them on days when they're not sick...

p.s And if anyone has some suggestions I could pass up my CoC it'd be appreciated. I'd like to get the ball rolling on this, because someone's going to get hurt... We work on 250 million dollar aircraft, and having a foggy mind could lead to some pretty serious repercussions.

Hence, the reason why your CoC does not allow CF pers to "call in sick".

Nevertheless, here is an interesting read on the DWAN (it's an oldie) but worth it, as it provides a look at such situations from an ethical perspective as opposed to regulatory...

http://ethics.mil.ca/scenarios/2008/sick-maladie-eng.aspx

 

[bridges]

Hence, the reason why your CoC does not allow CF pers to "call in sick".

Nevertheless, here is an interesting read on the DWAN (it's an oldie) but worth it, as it provides a look at such situations from an ethical perspective as opposed to regulatory...

http://ethics.mil.ca/scenarios/2008/sick-maladie-eng.aspx

Thanks for that link, DAA.  Some good points in both reader responses.

Civ employees have a certain # of sick days per month - for my group it's 1.25 days/month or 15 days/year.  (Not counting injury/illness due to work - that's different.)  After that, you can advance up to another 25 days from future years' allotments, but then it starts getting into disability or incapacity and is handled differently.

We can call in sick, and register it afterwards as "Sick-Uncertified".  If it's certified by a doctor, on the other hand, and you were on vacation at the time, you can get that time added back to your vacation allotment.

Why I mention all this is that the limited availability of "sick time" is also a cap, of sorts, on potential abuse.  I've taken nowhere near my 15 days/year - more like 3 or 4, due to colds - but I'm glad I can save those days in case something serious happens later on. 

In the CF, after my first five years, my jobs were all static and I was able to call in sick without going to the MIR (once that policy came into place), but it depends on the unit.  Because there's no such "cap" in the CF, I wonder at what point a CF member's "uncertified" sick days in 1s & 2s would add up to a number indicating a possible medical problem? 


(Edit:  missed a word)

 

[Occam]

Hence, the reason why your CoC does not allow CF pers to "call in sick".

Hence what reason why?

Because some people abuse it?  That's a piss-poor excuse for punishing the masses.

QR&O 16.16 was changed years ago to permit personnel to call in to obtain their supervisor's approval for up to two consecutive days of sick leave, as delegated by the CO.  Of course COs can choose not to delegate, but this completely defeats the intent of the change, which was to prevent people who were suffering from colds, stomach bugs, or other minor but irritating ailments from coming in and making the MIR a big petri dish.

If Pte Bloggins' supervisor notes that he's called in sick 6 times in a month, then there's reason for Bloggins' supervisor to direct Bloggins to go see the MIR.  I have never understood why some units make it difficult for people because of the few who abuse the policy.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Occam, I don't think it is as wide spread as might be implied in earlier posts but you know it will happen-human nature.  I agree with someone else though. As a supervisor, it is your responsibility...your obligation to direct your young fella to Sick Parade if this becomes chronic. This is an advantage we have over some employers. My wife's work has someone who phones in atleast once a week and when her supervisor attempted to direct her to her Dr because she was 'concerned', the boss was slapped on the hand by the employee's union for 'singling out' an employee with a 'personal vendeta'. I almost s*** when my wife told me this and it was also when I realized that I wouldn't fit in very well in a union workplace!
(Sorry for wandering there!)

 

[OldSolduer]

As an RSM, I don't like the idea of "calling in" sick. It does leave room for abuse....HOWEVER....

If we instill a sense of responsibility and accountability into our soldiers, and specifically in this case towards "calling in sick" and abusing it is wrong, and if we find out you're golfing while "out sick" you will be held accountable.

My civvy side job is a union job where we can call in sick. It is horribly abused....and I am understating that.

 

[DAA]

QR&O 16.16 was changed years ago to permit personnel to call in to obtain their supervisor's approval for up to two consecutive days of sick leave, as delegated by the CO. 

I don't see anywhere in the QR&O that permits anyone to call in for anything.........

Bottom line, you have no rights what so ever to "call in" for anything, it's that simple.  Just like you cannot "call in" and say "I am taking Annual Leave today", can you, can you call in and tell your Supr that your taking leave today???  What happened here, was the authorization for "Sick Leave", on a limited basis (ie' 2 days per month) was "delegated" to Commanding Officers in an attempt to cut down on the workload of the local Base/Wing Hospital Staff in having to deal with relatively simple non-complicated medical issues (ie; colds and flu's).  The CF Leave Manual affords CO's that option, how they want to implement it, is there choice.

I am entitled to Annual Leave every year but yet, when I submit a leave pass, my CO can choose whether or not to "approve" it.  And I believe in most cases, Base/Wing/Unit Standing Orders say that you need to submit your request anywhere between 7 and 14 working/calendar days in advance.

Personal experience.........I have always let my staff call in sick, with reason.  In one case, I had an individual who did call in sick, exacty 2 days every month.  On the forth month when he called in, I told him to go the the MIR and that his "privilege" to call in was no longer available.  I was NOT about to penalize an entire section for the actions of an individual in a case like this, that's just silly.

PS - and leaving a "voice message" doesn't count!!!  The individual must talk to someone in a position of authority, within his/her CoC!!!  So calling the Pte at work to say your sick, doesn't quite cut it....

 

[Occam]

Occam, I don't think it is as wide spread as might be implied in earlier posts but you know it will happen-human nature.  I agree with someone else though. As a supervisor, it is your responsibility...your obligation to direct your young fella to Sick Parade if this becomes chronic. This is an advantage we have over some employers. My wife's work has someone who phones in atleast once a week and when her supervisor attempted to direct her to her Dr because she was 'concerned', the boss was slapped on the hand by the employee's union for 'singling out' an employee with a 'personal vendeta'. I almost s*** when my wife told me this and it was also when I realized that I wouldn't fit in very well in a union workplace!
(Sorry for wandering there!)

I agree, it's not a widespread problem...but I have seen at least a few units that follow this policy, and it's unnecessary in my opinion.  If the supervisors are doing their jobs, there should be no need to force everyone to drag their barking cough or explosive diarrhea into the MIR because most people can successfully diagnose a common cold or stomach bug without the aid of a medical degree.

As for your wife's workplace, once a week seems excessive.  My own union's collective agreement says that "Unless otherwise informed by the Employer", a statement from the employee that they were unable to perform their duties due to illness is sufficient to meet the requirements for sick leave.  I would think that after a few months of once-per-week absences, the employer would be within their rights to ask you to start producing medical certificates.

 

[dapaterson]

In any organization there are people who play the system, and mess things up for others.  In my time, I have seen:

* Folks who call in sick the day before and the day after annual leave;

* People who call in sick, forgetting about call display, so you can see that each time it's from the home of their previous evening's romantic conquest (and a different number each time);

* People nearing retirement in the public service who, in their last year, find a string of minor ailments to burn of the last of their sick leave before retirement;

* People posting on Facebook about how they're planning to take the next day off as sick leave so they can run errands, forgetting that they are friends with their boss;

* and many others.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

* People posting on Facebook about how they're planning to take the next day off as sick leave so they can run errands, forgetting that they are friends with their boss;

I have had the 'priveledge' of catching someone in this one-mild satsifaction but the guy kept doing it and just stopped posting it. I actually went to a fella's apartment once and found him and a bunch of freinds having a couple wets. AJAG didn't want to touch it because I violated 'the employee's rights' by showing up at their apartment to see if they were 'really sick' (I didn't hide the fact that was my reason for going over). Unfortunately, this clown is still around doing joe-jobs and keeping supervisors busy (The incident I mentioned was in 2005)

 

[dimsum]

I have had the 'priveledge' of catching someone in this one-mild satsifaction but the guy kept doing it and just stopped posting it. I actually went to a fella's apartment once and found him and a bunch of freinds having a couple wets. AJAG didn't want to touch it because I violated 'the employee's rights' by showing up at their apartment to see if they were 'really sick' (I didn't hide the fact that was my reason for going over). Unfortunately, this clown is still around doing joe-jobs and keeping supervisors busy (The incident I mentioned was in 2005)

(Not sarcastic)

How does that situation violate anyone's employee's rights?  If you genuinely thought that he was really sick, wouldn't it fall under "being a good supervisor" to see how he's doing?

 

[Staff Weenie]

I gather that studies have shown that people coming to work sick and infecting other staff members cost corporations more than those few who abuse sick days.  In that case, it is better to advocate that the CoC apply the two days call-in sick lve where logical.

My former CO delegated to me the authority to grant the two days to the staff. One person chronically abused it - I tracked every sick day in Monitor Mass, and the patterns were very evident.  I talked to the B Surg about what could be done, as the complaints were nonspecific ('headache', 'flu', 'back pain') - the answer was 'not much - if he comes in with complaints that cannot be easily discounted'. In the end, the only way we found to curb the abuse, was to tell the member to go to the clinic every time he was sick, and due to his obvious medical issues we were very concerned for his health and safety, and we wanted him to book a Part I & II Medical to determine if a TCat or PCat was required. The abuse vanished after that.

 

[DAA]

(Not sarcastic)

How does that situation violate anyone's employee's rights?  If you genuinely thought that he was really sick, wouldn't it fall under "being a good supervisor" to see how he's doing?

I had a similar experience and while you think you are doing good by looking out for the welfare of your troops, it can be considered as harassment of some form.  :-(

 

[The Bread Guy]

I had a similar experience and while you think you are doing good by looking out for the welfare of your troops, it can be considered as harassment of some form.  :-(

Would it have anything to do with going to a privately-rented "apartment", as opposed to checking the shacks?