Sick Leave ( merged )

[Shamrock]

Point being, there is no longer any such thing as compensatory time off in the CF leave lexicon. 

If a member is directed by their CoC to work a day that was otherwise not within their regular work schedule, the member's work schedule can be adjusted subsequently to account for the additional duty being assigned outside of the regular schedule ("your Monday duty was moved to this Saturday past, so return to regular duty on Tuesday").  If the member is directed to otherwise continue with their regular work schedule, the only other appropriate option is to issue the member a day of Short Leave as authorized by, or delegated by the CO.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Isn't that the very definition of a CTO?

I admit limited knowledge of shift workers. In the rare occurrence of a working weekend, a day or two of short may be issued in compensation. Where it becomes a recurring instance, would that not invite the individual to become a shift worker (and thus allow for a shifting duty schedule as described)?

 

[garb811]

Nope. I am in a similar situation as Max and the number of days exceeds the number of short days the CO can dish out.

Believe it or not, the CF leave manual has some serious deficiencies.

Ahh...the way I read it this was a once a month or two kind of thing for him.

I agree 100% about the leave manual, all it did was take an antiquated and confusing system that had been lurching along for years and make it worse.

 

[Good2Golf]

Isn't that the very definition of a CTO?

I admit limited knowledge of shift workers. In the rare occurrence of a working weekend, a day or two of short may be issued in compensation. Where it becomes a recurring instance, would that not invite the individual to become a shift worker (and thus allow for a shifting duty schedule as described)?

No.  There can be no definition of "CTO" because CTO as a specific type of leave does not exist. 

Can the CO authorize leave to a deserving member for work done beyond normal expectations?  Yes, and that is called short leave.  Does this mean some kind of one-for-one compensation if someone had to travel on a weekend day?  Not in my books, that's part of our duty and while kept in mind by supervisors, does not drive an actuarial approach to 'compensating' individuals for such travel.  Otherwise, alterations in working schedule should be accomplished through adjustments to that schedule. 

Regards
G2G

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If I understand the military system correctly we get 2 days sick leave a month without needing to go to sick parade (with CoC approval). I have never used them, any sick leave I have ever taken has been signed by the Doc, that doesn't mean I have 6 months of unused leave,  it means I have 2 days in may just like I had in Apr. I think that is pretty sufficient.

I am not sure about this policy anymore actually.  I think it was initiated by CF H Svcs Gp back about mid-2000s.  I first recall it when I was at a HQ and it came out (as far as I can remember...).  The intent was to keep people with the Flu or common cold, etc out of the CDUs during the initial 48 hours (most able to infect others during that time) for something they would just as likely be given a few days at home to recover.

At the unit I was at, Snr NCOs and up were able to authorize 2 x days 'sick at home' without a medical sick chit, on the 3rd day the mbr was required to report to the MIR.  It was published in our ROs as such so the policy was clear.

I have heard of people (one of them was a Sgt at the unit I reported to when I OTd and was a Cpl again back in '07) who thought there was an 'entitlement' to 2 days off a month for sick leave, sort of like a civilian employee might get.  I know of at least one case on my Wing and in my trade of someone who also believes this myth but hasn't be educated yet; that will happen at some point as everyone is bound to end up at the line sqn sooner or later. 

Seems to me, the last few years or so people have been getting far better at just 'making stuff up' instead of finding and following official direction/policy.  Not just on this topic, and a whole bunch of other ones too.  The latest one I heard was the "you have to submit a leave pass if you are not sleeping within the geographical boundaries of base on the weekend" one.  Yup, I'll just ignore that, thanks.

On another note, boys oh boys are we ever off topic the last few pages!!  ;D

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

If I understand the military system correctly we get 2 days sick leave a month without needing to go to sick parade (with CoC approval). I have never used them, any sick leave I have ever taken has been signed by the Doc, that doesn't mean I have 6 months of unused leave,  it means I have 2 days in may just like I had in Apr. I think that is pretty sufficient.

Local policy.

Where I am if you're sick you report to MIR, no freebees. If you're too sick to report to the MIR we'll send you an ambulance.

 

[mariomike]

See also,

Sick Days/Sick Leave/Calling in Sick
http://army.ca/forums/threads/107620.50.html
3 pages.

Sick Days 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/83189.0

Malingering
http://army.ca/forums/threads/74062.25
2 pages.


Edited.

 

[Lumber]

Local policy.

Where I am if you're sick you report to MIR, no freebees. If you're too sick to report to the MIR we'll send you an ambulance.

This drives me bonkers, and fortunately I haven't been at a unit that has made a black and white policy such as this. Wherever I've been, if I'm so sick that I don't feel that it's safe for me to drive a car due to shivering and or vomiting, then they told you to stay home! My last department head on my last ship would actually kick people off the ship if it even looked like they were getting sick so as not to start a ship-wide epidemic. (and by kicked-off I mean sent home, not to the MIR).

It's especially relieving where I work now, because my MIR is 1.5 hours away!

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that there will be no pay-raise this year, and next year there will be a pay-freeze for all Federal Gov't employees.  If there isn't, then I'll be happy and enjoy my annual IPC increase.  I'm not holding my breath, nor writing any cheques based on a possible pay raise.
NS

Just got my IPC! ;D 

 

[armyvern]

This drives me bonkers, and fortunately I haven't been at a unit that has made a black and white policy such as this. Wherever I've been, if I'm so sick that I don't feel that it's safe for me to drive a car due to shivering and or vomiting, then they told you to stay home! My last department head on my last ship would actually kick people off the ship if it even looked like they were getting sick so as not to start a ship-wide epidemic. (and by kicked-off I mean sent home, not to the MIR).

It's especially relieving where I work now, because my MIR is 1.5 hours away!

Just got my IPC! ;D

Blame those who abuse it.

At a prior Unit, I went to the CO with the stats on a member ... because you can NOT get the Med world to sign off on charging even the most blatant asshole with malingering these days. 

Tracked bud for 6 months.  He called in sick two days per month every one of those 6 months.  Always on Fridays and Mondays.  With a mere two exceptions ... in the 2 months that there were long weekends, he called in sick on a Thursday and a Tuesday thus enabling himself of a super-long weekend.

CO made the call that the "privilege" of calling in sick no longer existed for this individual.  No collective 'punishment' of the entire Unit as all others were still able to call in if required.  This guy though, to freakin' bad - MIR for him ever after - along with the official admin paperwork placed on his file so future Units would also be aware of his track record.  Same Unit's policy was "Call in day 1, but if you're still sick on day 2, head to the MIR".  Same Unit was also very good at kicking people out of work to go home if they showed up to work being sickly to spare the rest of us.



Privilege, not a right. 

 

[Staff Weenie]

Probably time for Mods to split this thread....

Vern - I had a Sgt doing the same thing. I talked to the BSurg to see what could be done - we agreed on a course of action. I called the member in and informed him he was being order to the clinic for a Part I & II Medical. He was sick so often, that clearly there was some sort of lingering health risk, maybe he had a chronic, possibly even potentially terminal conditions (he always had headaches on Fri or Mon), maybe it was a tumor??? In fact, he may not be suitable for service in the CAF anymore if he was sick so often. And oh by the way, I provided the clinic with a full record of all of your sick days over the past several months to help the clinicians in reaching a diagnosis.

That stopped him in his tracks.....

 

[Remius]

I had the same issue with a Sgt as well. Fridays and Mondays twice a month.  Like clockwork.  I kept a spredsheet tracking leave, sick days, CTO etc.  We started sending him to the MIR when he would call in sick.  I even showed him the spreadsheet with his pattern over 12 months.  Eventually the MIR noticed the pattern and just sent him back to work when he would go in to see them. 

 

[Nudibranch]

Blame those who abuse it.

At a prior Unit, I went to the CO with the stats on a member ... because you can NOT get the Med world to sign off on charging even the most blatant ******* with malingering these days. 

No, the Med world will not "sign off' on charges of "malingering" - that is fully in keeping with clinical practice norms. Charging someone is an administrative CoC function, not Medical - the CO can charge, and if the proper legal processes are followed, clinicians can be called to testify.

Nor does the electronic medical system purchased by the CAF from the lowest bidder allow for any sort of tracking or flagging of these kinds of issues. Proactive CoC's - who are way more aware of their pers' patterns of SP attendance than the clinicians, since flying into SP means the mbr could go for months literally seeing a different clinician every time - will reach out to their CDU team lead or the BaseSurg about their "problem mbrs" so that a way to cut them off at the knees can be found if indeed they are misusing the system. While the med world will not be charging anyone, there are things that can be done, such as holding a mbr with "diarrhea/vomiting" for a couple of hours until they've demonstrated their complete lack of either, before punting them back to the unit. Or the amazingly restorative power of the "increased regular medical care requirements" TCAT, as Staff Weenie mentioned.

But the CoC's sometimes appear to abdicate their responsibilities, and then complain that the medical system fails to fill the void (I can't count how many supervisors have called me asking for drug results on mbrs they "know" - in some cases allegedly from the mbr himself - that the mbr was on drugs or drunk, but instead of testing for cause and charging, they've sent them to Medical. Well great, now it's confidential med info. If you know your mbr is drunk on duty, you deal with him! Medical still can and will treat him, but his release will can ever so much faster if through the disciplinary route).

Speaking of charges, I wonder why the many mbrs who DAG yellow or red for psychosocial issues of a longer-standing nature just before a deployment (lack of feasible family care plan, going through complex divorce, etc) are never charged - they're happy to sit alongside drawing sea pay and don't report their deployability issues to their CoC, since their sea pay or their promotion or their whatever might be endangered - but the minute they're to actually deploy, off they go like a shot to Psychosocial with issues that have been going on for quite some time.

 

[NavalMoose]

Ah yes, the infamous "NATO knee"...I knew a few of those guys.

 

[Walking rottie]

Good day,

I'm trying to find out where the regulations are that state what you can and can not do while on extended sick leave. (example 1-2 months) Are you allowed to take a course? I know that traveling out of the region means you have to use annual unless you have that you are allowed to travel outside of the local area on your chit.

If someone knows where I can find that information it would be great.

 

[ModlrMike]

On one's own time and dime it shouldn't be a problem, provided the member isn't doing things that are germane to their reasons for being on sick leave in the first place. I can see where a person is on sick leave for an injury that would be exacerbated by being at work, but at the same time that member can take a course in town that doesn't impact the injury.

On the Crown's time and dime, that's generally a different story. Typically one has to be fit to attend the course, and the course loading or joining instructions usually state that. I would think that sick leave would preclude being loaded on course, unless there were extenuating circumstances, or the course was part of the member's return to duty programme

In short though, I'm not sure there's a specific regulation that covers what your asking.

 

[Mediman14]

A story to share.... Over the pass couple of days, I have heard several members indicate that they was on stress leave, from what I know and read in the regs, there is no stress leave. Honestly, from my experience, I hear this the most from Health Services personnel. At one point, in my previous unit, a total 8 of Medics had been given leave/ excused duties in the same period of time by several Medical Officers. Although the reason(s) for excused duties are the members confidentiality, one can't help but wonder why 8 people in the same time frame??

This raised a few eye brows, the Commanding Officer being concerned, ordered the BSurg to see exactly what was given to the Members. Here is the end result;
      - Some peoples excused duties was reduced
      - Some people was ordered back to work
Later an email was sent unit wide by the Commanding Officer, explaining that work conflict is no reason to see a Medical Officer and that all conflicts should be handled within the unit.

Was this the right thing to do?? Was this abuse of authority?
I feel that there is some many questions to this.

 

[ModlrMike]

I agree, there is formally no such thing as "stress leave". That being said, stress can be a reason to be granted sick leave.

I further agree with the CO, but to a point. Going to the MO as a first solution to a workplace conflict is not appropriate. There are measures already in place to deal with workplace issues. If, however a member has exhausted all available resources, and to their detriment the conflict persists, then that takes us back to my first point... sick leave.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Later an email was sent unit wide by the Commanding Officer, explaining that work conflict is no reason to see a Medical Officer and that all conflicts should be handled within the unit.

I can't say that I agree with this, and it seems to me it contradicts purpose of the Integrated Conflict and Complaint Management Program.

While the Program does stress 'lowest level possible' and reporting to the CO informally, etc before going formal there are times a mbr may not want/chose to do so or even be willing to attempt ADR.

Some of the benefits of the ICCM services is to bring conflict out of the workplace, take some of the demands off the CofC in terms of time/effort in resolution, and provide a support sys for the CofC for those 'can handle inhouse' instances.

 

[gcclarke]

I agree, there is formally no such thing as "stress leave". That being said, stress can be a reason to be granted sick leave.

I further agree with the CO, but to a point. Going to the MO as a first solution to a workplace conflict is not appropriate. There are measures already in place to deal with workplace issues. If, however a member has exhausted all available resources, and to their detriment the conflict persists, then that takes us back to my first point... sick leave.

Furthermore, if like many other places, the unit is in the habit of allowing members to "call in" for sick leave for up to the two days that a CO can authorize, then why would a bad mental health day be any less valid of a reason to call in than an acute infection, etc?

 

[medicineman]

I had a bit of a rant...I note Mike beat me to the punch (and when I tried to post, the thread got moved, lol).  IMO, if a CO is noticing that a pile of folks is on Sick Leave and it appears that it's secondary to work place conflict (assuming someone actually allowed the docs to divulge that) or they're just assuming it because all the people are in the same sub unit, then they should be concerned to the point that their Adjutant and RSM should be doing some digging around to find out WTF is going on. 

I have seen issues where people feel because they're in a medical unit, they're entitled to above the usual amount of information regarding a member's health issues or that they can insinuate themselves into that person's care or outright disregard medical chits.  Had the pleasure of watching a medical RSM have their bum handed to them by someone's MO for meddling with their light duty schedule...after having had the displeasure the day before of hearing said platoon mate get his ass reamed out by same RSM while I was in THE PARKING LOT and they were behind a closed door in the RSM's office (so yeah, everyone heard him get called a malingerer). 

MM

 

[Mediman14]

From what I know, I can't be 100% certain on why all 8 medics had leave (excused duties, sick leave) given to them, but it is really something to ponder about. What is true, but is sad,  Medics become friends with Nurses, MO's, and etc, the same way friends are made in different units. This just happens to be a medical unit. It is relatively easy to get time off.

I feel unsettled about the whole thing, the fact that a CO asking to find out what was given to Members (Medically) kind of rubs me the wrong way. He had to be given some medical information or details on some people had said to get excused duties. One of these members went through a rough time, having loss their mother due till illness. After receiving 14 days of leave, it was clear that this member struggled daily at work because of the death. The member presented themselves to mental health who presented the situation to one of the Medical Officers, the end result, the member was given sick leave. Two days later, the member was called back to work. I admit I do not know all the details of this but I what I do know, the Junior member and the CO met at the Conflict and Resolution center (1st time for the member, 3rd time in a year for the CO). A week later, the member was given more time.