Sick Leave ( merged )

[DAA]

Would it have anything to do with going to a privately-rented "apartment", as opposed to checking the shacks?

Actually, the guy called in sick one day.  Then one of my MCpl's tells me he got a phone call and knows where Cpl X is.  I said, "he's at home sick".  The MCpl said "No, he is over at the Base sports field, drinking beer and watching the softball regionals".  So he went over to confirm the report but never confronted him, just came back to office and said, he's there alright.  Never had so many bite marks from higher ups on my behind in my life.....

In the end, I was told to NEVER do that one again.  Mind you, Cpl X was never allowed to call in sick again either.  But things went from bad to worse as he dropped off a sick chit the very next morning and guess where he went afterwards?  Yup, right back to the sports field.

So I informed my CoC of what had been reported to me.  They contacted the B Hosp/MO and then THEY ended up with bite marks on their behind.....LOL  Excused duty means just that and the member can pretty much do what they want.....  In-Credi-Bulllllllllll.......

 

[The Bread Guy]

Actually, the guy called in sick one day.  Then one of my MCpl's tells me he got a phone call and knows where Cpl X is.  I said, "he's at home sick".  The MCpl said "No, he is over at the Base sports field, drinking beer and watching the softball regionals".  So he went over to confirm the report but never confronted him, just came back to office and said, he's there alright.  Never had so many bite marks from higher ups on my behind in my life.....

In the end, I was told to NEVER do that one again.  Mind you, Cpl X was never allowed to call in sick again either.  But things went from bad to worse as he dropped off a sick chit the very next morning and guess where he went afterwards?  Yup, right back to the sports field.

So I informed my CoC of what had been reported to me.  They contacted the B Hosp/MO and then THEY ended up with bite marks on their behind.....LOL  Excused duty means just that and the member can pretty much do what they want.....  In-Credi-Bulllllllllll.......

That's sad ....

 

[Haggis]

Actually, the guy called in sick one day.  Then one of my MCpl's tells me he got a phone call and knows where Cpl X is.  I said, "he's at home sick".  The MCpl said "No, he is over at the Base sports field, drinking beer and watching the softball regionals".  So he went over to confirm the report but never confronted him, just came back to office and said, he's there alright.  Never had so many bite marks from higher ups on my behind in my life.....

In the end, I was told to NEVER do that one again.  Mind you, Cpl X was never allowed to call in sick again either.  But things went from bad to worse as he dropped off a sick chit the very next morning and guess where he went afterwards?  Yup, right back to the sports field.

So I informed my CoC of what had been reported to me.  They contacted the B Hosp/MO and then THEY ended up with bite marks on their behind.....LOL  Excused duty means just that and the member can pretty much do what they want.....  In-Credi-Bulllllllllll.......

Perhaps it's time to dust of QR&O 103.31:

103.31 – MALINGERING OR MAIMING
 
(1) Section 98 of the National Defence Act provides:
 
  "98. Every person who
 
  (a) malingers or feigns or produces disease or infirmity,
 
  (b) aggravates, or delays the cure of, disease or infirmity by misconduct or wilful disobedience of orders, or

  (c) wilfully mains or injures himself or any other person who is a member of any of Her Majesty’s Forces or of any forces cooperating therewith, whether at the instance of that person or not, with intent thereby to render himself or that other person unfit for service, or causes himself to be maimed or injured by any person with intent thereby to render himself unfit for service,
     
  is guilty of an offence and on conviction, if he commits the offence on active service or when under orders for active service or in respect of a person on active service or under orders for active service, is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment and, in any other case, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to less punishment."

 

[Stoker]

Perhaps it's time to dust of QR&O 103.31:

103.31 – MALINGERING OR MAIMING
 
(1) Section 98 of the National Defence Act provides:
 
  "98. Every person who
 
  (a) malingers or feigns or produces disease or infirmity,
 
  (b) aggravates, or delays the cure of, disease or infirmity by misconduct or wilful disobedience of orders, or

  (c) wilfully mains or injures himself or any other person who is a member of any of Her Majesty’s Forces or of any forces cooperating therewith, whether at the instance of that person or not, with intent thereby to render himself or that other person unfit for service, or causes himself to be maimed or injured by any person with intent thereby to render himself unfit for service,
     
  is guilty of an offence and on conviction, if he commits the offence on active service or when under orders for active service or in respect of a person on active service or under orders for active service, is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment and, in any other case, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to less punishment."

Good in principal, however trying prove and more importantly get AJAG to sign off on that charge is very hard thing to do.

 

[Haggis]

Good in principal, however trying prove and more importantly get AJAG to sign off on that charge is very hard thing to do.

True, but in extreme cases of abuse (such as what DAA describes) it could be worth the effort.  Given those circumstances, I'd attempt it.

 

[medicineman]

I had a patient of mine get an arse reaming from his MWO via my Sgt one day after I gave him a day of excused duty for something, then promptly ran into him while I was doing a supply run in town...looking much less sick than previously and with a large Timmy's in hand.  I also refused to see the man again unless he came in with a traumatic amputation or cardiac arrest - others also took that up as well (it's called firing a patient - all above board and legal, since we couldn't trust him because of this and previous history).  Fact is, unless the person is given a chit of Sick in Quarters - bathroom and meal privileges only (used to do that with school students or RMC cadets to keep folks from bothering them for inspections but also to nip some weekend malingering in the bud), "Excused Duty" means just that...now as a supervisor, if you have someone setting a pattern of shyte like this, you can embugger them by insisting that they go to the MIR...a friendly chat with whoever the supervisor there is may have them stay a little longer than they should (triage level permitting of course) and likely a return to duty depending on what's wrong.  A pattern may also be a justification for administrative vs discplinary action as well - IC/RW etc - especially if there are witnesses to the incidents in question.  I know that alot of people haven't got the stomach to initiate a charge of malingering, but the admin action might stick. 

I used to get more abuse from patients when I wouldn't give them a day off for something that wouldn't keep me from going to work than I can shake a stick at - learned the hard way from dealing with people with acute or chronic snivellitis...and their bosses.

MM   

 

[Tank Troll]

Two instances where some one called in sick when I was posted to Edmonton and was the acting Admin Sgt for the Sqn one of the young guys called in sick on Thursday morning he lived in the shack and had flue symptoms and it was going around so I told him to stay home. I went over latter that day checked on him and he was indeed sick.  The next day he phone with the same problem I almost let it go but I had other thoughts and said to go in and get checked as the MIR was just down the street. He complained that it wasn't that bad and that he really didn't want to go wait there just to get some meds I insisted and told him I would drive him if necessary. As it turned out I had stuff to do so I sent one of the other guys to do it.  He went over picked him up and took him to the MIR. It was a good thing as it turned out he had Meningitis and if he hadn't gone to the MIR he probable would have died on the weekend as it a three day one. So after that I never let any one call in sick if they couldn't get them selves in then I would send some one or I would get them my self. About 3 months after that one of the guys called and complained about having a pain in his stomach and right side. He thought he just over did it at the gym and wanted to just stay on the couch as it hurt to sit up for any legnth of time. He also told me he hadn't been feeling all that well for the lats couple of days. Thinking back to the last guy I had sick I told I would come and get him I brought him in to the MIR again good thing he had appendicitis and they were ready tro burst. So yeah as an  A/RSM I always tell my guys to go to the MIR or there personal doctors if they aren't feeling well.

 

[Cadwr]

Granting of up to 2 days sick leave is command decision, under the authority of the CO, which said CO may or may not choose to delegate to a level of their choosing.  The CO should define and promulgate this choice and the mechanism by which sick leave is to be granted within their unit.  It is very, very common for this to be delegated in such a manner that for most members, approval form their direct supervisor is often sufficient.  This happens both by design, and as often, by indulgence.

That said, the tracking and administration of this sick leave is a command responsibility, and one that is very important. 

I would caution supervisors: Don't be too quick to associate what you perceive as "abuse" of sick leave with malingering, laziness, conjunctive slack'n'idleness, or what have you.  (Yes, it happens - but it should never be the default assumption.) Keep track, watch for abuse, but also watch for patterns.  Always sick the monday after payday?  Always sick the day after they drop off their kids?  Always sick on the third Wednesday of the month?  Many is the person who has used one too many days of sick leave as a temporary (and ineffective) means of coping with alcoholism (theirs or someone elses gambling, family problems, depression, abuse, etc.  So keep records, and pass those records on to your successors.  And please, never think you are doing a subordinate a favour by "looking the other way"; the consequences of failing to address the myriad problems that manifest themselves in absenteeism can be catastrophically greater than tackling a problem head on.

/lecture off

 

[DAA]

So keep records, and pass those records on to your successors.  /lecture off

There should be little if any requirement to keep a record on this.  If someone calls in sick and is given the day off by their supr (because such authority is delegated to them), then it is done under the "authority of the unit CO".  A CF 100 (Leave Pass) must be done (and NOT through Monitor Mass), and signed by the "CO" (or delegated authority) as authorizing the sick leave and then sent to your supporting Orderly Room to be processed through HRMS (PeopleSoft).

This is the way it is suppose to be tracked........not in someone's note book, nor Div Note, nor anything other means.

There was a message that came out sometime ago addressing this issue and the fact that it wasn't being tracked/recorded appropriately....

Point to ponder for supervisors.........  A subordinate calls in sick and you give them the day off.  Something unmentionable happens to them that day.  The first question will be "Why were they not at work?", followed by "Where is the leave pass for Sick Leave and who authorized this"?  <-----  Not a position that I would want to be in!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Point to ponder for supervisors.........  A subordinate calls in sick and you give them the day off.  Something unmentionable happens to them that day.  The first question will be "Why were they not at work?", followed by "Where is the leave pass for Sick Leave and who authorized this"?  <-----  Not a position that I would want to be in!

Filling out a paper leave pass signed by the OC for private spears who called in sick that day with the shits just isn't practical.
We go on weekend leave to the local area without leave passes- does your example come into play there too?

 

[DAA]

Filling out a paper leave pass signed by the OC for private spears who called in sick that day with the shits just isn't practical.
We go on weekend leave to the local area without leave passes- does your example come into play there too?

As a matter of fact it does....especially when you leave the geographical area of your unit.  Have a look at the CF Leave Manual and it specifically addresses the issue you so kindly pointed out above regarding weekend leave.  I don't have the regulationa handy but it goes something like this "the requirement for a leave pass for weekend travel outside the geographical area is as directed by section/unit/base orders as published".

Weekend leave passes, where applicable, may not be enforced or followed and the same goes for sick leave, until the time comes and then as they say "you got some explaining to do".

 

[Jarnhamar]

Let me rephrase.

You're saying if a member calls in sick then his or her chain of command should fill out a paper leave pass for the day in case something happens to the person while they are at home.

What if

1. A members child is sick and they leave work in order to go pick up the kid at school and something bad happens- should the member have a leave pass for this?
2. Someone volunteers to work over a weekend so they are told to take Monday off for compensation. Again should this be entered into people soft? 

(No sarcasm).

 

[Towards_the_gap]

And further to that, what would happen if they didn't have a leave pass? AWOL charge? Subtract a days pay? The individual on said leave simply blinks out of existence?

I'm finding more and more that alot of these arcane rules and regs are so convoluted from the original intent as to be essentially a process for the sake of a process, not actually serving a purpose, like having 2 superiors sign, and have the ROR stamp and photocopy, a leave pass so Cpl Bloggins can have a sick day.

 

[Shamrock]

To answer #2, it's simply that CTO days are not authorized. These are issued by COs in the form of short for those sort of circumstances. By the law of the land, the worked weekend is simply a hazard of the military, and for that factor we get compensated by an additional 15% in our pay.

#1, I can't give a reliable answer. I imagine the company line, consistent with above would be take an annual day.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

But my point is: Cpl Bloggins works a weekend, I tell him 'take monday off', and don't bother to fill out a leave pass. He trips on a flight of stairs, in the shacks, on Monday, breaks a leg. What on earth happens now that he does not have a leave pass? Are the MP's waiting bedside? Does a Board of Inquiry convene consisting of 3 Col's, 4 Maj and a Lt, who's sole purpose is to determine the whereabouts of Cpl Bloggins and why he was inadequately supervised descending a flight of stairs? Do the Doctors get a credit check from him before he leaves the hospital to ensure he has the ability to pay?

Seriously...What?

In 11 years service I've never heard, in real life, of a person getting in trouble for not having a leave pass (apart fromt the obvious AWOL's) and having something happen.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I can confirm that DAA is exactly right.  If you give someone a day off, because they call in sick, a leave pass must be filled out as soon as practicable and entered into HRMS.

Equally, if one of your troops one back from the MIR and presents a chit saying he has two days bed rest, a sick leave must be generated by the unit (as leave- all leave- is a CoC responsibility to authorize) and entered into HRMS.

The CO of the Health Services unit providing support to my unit recently briefed the amount of days "recommended" as excused duty in a particular location vs the amount of days actually entered in HRMS.  It was pretty obvious that many units were not in any way keeping tabs on their people.

 

[Shamrock]

Let me try another approach: from where do you derive the authority to issue a CTO or buckshee day?

Time off is just another human resource which must be properly administered and tracked. We have several references I encourage you to review to better inform you of policy.

 

[Occam]

Equally, if one of your troops one back from the MIR and presents a chit saying he has two days bed rest, a sick leave must be generated by the unit (as leave- all leave- is a CoC responsibility to authorize) and entered into HRMS.

Unless something has changed, the unit only does the administration on sick leave up to and including the two days that can be granted by the CO.  If I remember correctly, when I was given two weeks sick leave a few years ago, the orderly room at the hospital completed the CF 100 and the MO signed off on it.

 

[Strike]

Unless something has changed, the unit only does the administration on sick leave up to and including the two days that can be granted by the CO.  If I remember correctly, when I was given two weeks sick leave a few years ago, the orderly room at the hospital completed the CF 100 and the MO signed off on it.

Actually, the new system seems to be to state on a printed sick chit that the member has so many days of sick leave.  At least, that's how mine has been handled, which was just given to me only a couple of days ago for what could be considered an extended period.  There is no leave pass filled out or anything.

 

[Occam]

Let me try another approach: from where do you derive the authority to issue a CTO or buckshee day?

Time off is just another human resource which must be properly administered and tracked. We have several references I encourage you to review to better inform you of policy.

Well, if this thread is any indication, there is no such thing as CTO.  If Bloggins has to work on a day which is "normally" a day off, then I think the legal and proper (however cumbersome) way to compensate them for it is Short leave, through the CO.  I don't think I ever saw that done once in my 26 years, though...