Spiritual Issues

[mathabos]

I respect others' faiths and beliefs, even if I do not share them or fully understand them. I accept that they are real for them, even if they are not for me. Their ability to practice them openly and safely must be protected.

I find religions interesting and enlightening, even if I do not believe. There is much to learn from their teachings and their followers. I am currently doing a little light research into Catholicism. I began that for a very specific reason, but the more that I learn (little, still), the more interested I become. As an Englishman by birth, I started from a slightly prejudiced position, induced by history, but that no longer applies.

I still do not, however, believe that there is a God, and I have been that way since childhood. I cannot prove that I am right, nor do I have any reason to make such an attempt. His existence is not impossible, although it may not be quite in the form that His followers believe. I see plenty of indications that He could exist, but plenty of indications to the contrary as well. I have yet to see hard evidence, and I am an evidence-based person.

I do not feel any void or lack in my life as a result of this absence of belief in a Deity. Lack of an afterlife does not bother me, nor will it. I cannot suddenly believe what I do not believe, even in the face of death (and I have been in that position more than once). I cannot turn belief on at will any more than you can turn it off. Absence of religion does not prevent me from being as moral as the next fellow. I am completely content with all of this.

Regardless, and back to the original topic, I am reasonably sure that you can find a place for yourself within the CF, and make a valuable and valued contribution, should you so choose. That is for you to decide, though, based upon your interests and your personal interpretation of your faith. That may be as a Padre, or it may be as something else.

Service as a Padre is at least as important as service in any other occupation, combat or support. Your contribution to the overall effort would be no less valuable than somebody out in a LAV, a Leopard, a Frigate, a Chinook, or, yes, even a lowly CF18.

I agree with your post. I have felt the same way as you from a young age.
I have many friends with similar views.
However, I will always respect other peoples points of view.

As posted earlier also, we are free to think for ourselves. I would like it if people who believe in God could simply leave me alone. I too have the missionaries preach to me. It could be at work or with friends. I fully respect them and do not try to convince them they are wrong.
Wish they could simply do the same. Just my  :2c:

 

[Antoine]

The OP was interested in developing non-lethal weapons. I hardly think Bioscience officer is going to get him there. Working as a scientist for DRDC would be a much broader option.

Oops, I've read his post a bit too fast. I agree with you, DRDC is a good bet.

I know people from other federal departments who worked with DRDC and CF on challenging scientific projects and of great help for the CF. I'll be happy to work there, may be one day.

Cheers,

 

[Ravanosh]

I think I can sum up my beliefs with a simple quote:

"It takes a great deal more faith to believe in an accidental universe than to believe in an intelligent creator" - Dr. Walter L. Bradley

In my humble opinion, those who are convinced to the contrary have yet to conduct the necessary research to form a conclusion either way. If you would prefer a purely physical approach (as opposed to Dr. Campbell's metaphysical theories) I highly recommend the work of Dr. Bradley.

In the places i have been, "free will" is not some abstract concept......."free will" has killed thouhsands, Destroyed lives..........

Take a tour around the world and get back to me.

I never meant free will in an abstract sense, and I know full well the evils in this world. I have seen the work of cartels like the Los Zeta's, with their non-chalant attitude towards horrendous acts of torture and slaughter, and I have seen the brainwashing and enslavement of the people under Kim Jong Il's regime, to name a few examples. No one is free of the influence of evil, even those fighting for "good" (i.e. Guantánamo DC).

These all result from choices. There is just as much good in this world brought about by the acts of man, but evil gets all the press.

I recommend studying the work of the scientists I referenced, before forming an opinion.

 

[Loachman]

"It takes a great deal more faith to believe in an an intelligent creator than to believe in accidental universe" - Non-Dr Loachman.

It takes me no faith at all to believe in an accidental universe, in fact.

The more that we know about the universe, the less I believe in the probabability that a single being could create such a vast and complex thing. Then there is the "who/what created the Creator" issue. This is all beyond my comprehension, so I do not waste time considering it. I simply except that the universe exists, and am happy for that. I like a lot of what is in it.

This is not due to a lack of research. As nobody has actually been able to prove or disprove the existence of God, such research is not even possible. One can only read arguments for each position, and draw conclusions from those arguments in the complete lack of real evidence for either argument.

I hope that you are right, and that I am wrong. It would be better for all of us were it that way (well, I suppose, except for those consigned to the "Other Place") but for me, simply wanting something does not make it so.

There is only one way to know if God and an afterlife exist, if you are right. If I am right, none of us will ever know. I am in no rush to know or not know either way.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think I can sum up my beliefs with a simple quote:

"It takes a great deal more faith to believe in an accidental universe than to believe in an intelligent creator" - Dr. Walter L. Bradley

In my humble opinion, those who are convinced to the contrary have yet to conduct the necessary research to form a conclusion either way. If you would prefer a purely physical approach (as opposed to Dr. Campbell's metaphysical theories) I highly recommend the work of Dr. Bradley.

So you find someones suggestion that your faith in a higher power is rubbush, offensive.
Yet you're turning around and suggesting that anyone who doesn't believe in a higher power  'just hasn't researched enough'. So basically THEIR belief is rubbish.  : 
Sounds like preaching.

 

[57Chevy]

Actually it doesn't take too much research at all.
Just a little bit of reading from the Holy Bible.
You will certainly start to ask yourself, How it could possibly be, that whoever put
it all together was able to predict exactly what is happening all over the world.
And then going on to say that it will be getting worse......of which it is.
Obviously, if you have never read it, then you are simply misled into non-belief.
I don't want to preach, but I believe every word that is written in the Holy Bible
was not written in vain.

 

[aesop081]

In my humble opinion, those who are convinced to the contrary have yet to conduct the necessary research to form a conclusion either way.

I was raised a good Quebec Catholic, so my research was pretty much belt-fed as a kid, thanks. I'm 34 years old, i didnt arrive at my conclusions lightly.

Study the work of the scientists I referenced, and get back to me.

Was already familiar, thank you.

Actually it doesn't take too much research at all.
Just a little bit of reading from the Holy Bible.
You will certainly start to ask yourself,

Read it......many times. Great work of fiction, written in such a way that it can be interpreted to fit almost any theory.

There are over 50 versions of the bible......pick the one that fits your beleifs.

 

[Redeye]

Please - vague prophesies and confirmation bias mean basically nothing.  It's like when people make a big deal the the New Testament "confirms" prophesy in the Old Testament.  When you're writing a story, it's not hard to write it to fit the source docs.

A lot of people don't seem to realize (and mainly, because they aren't taught this, I surely wasn't in Catholic School) that the NT was written by multiple unknown authors, a long time after the events.  I was led to believe years ago that it was direct, known accounts by the apostles themselves.  It wasn't.  Good scholarship suggests that Mark was written first, and the other three synopics simply plagarized Mark, using a lot of artistic license.  Even at that, and the editing at Nicaea, they still couldn't get the stories to quite line up, but this too is generally overlooked!

As for the OP's assertion that we "need" to fill some "void", I'll echo Cdn_Aviator and say that's rubbish.  We don't.  Plenty of people live long and happy lives without any religious bent - without and sort of spiritual inclination whatsoever.  Some people need that in their lives, and that's fine - but it should be a private matter ultimately.  I used to be a belligerent about the matter (and when it comes to some religious folks I have no choice but to be!), but I'm since realized that ultimately, so long as their religion doesn't affect me, then live and let live.

The role of Chaplains is, as I understand it, to attend to the welfare of the Forces - spiritual welfare and otherwise.  Even though I'm an incorrigible atheist, I have plenty of time for Padres, I find many of them are interesting to talk to for their insight, and their work is still important and relevant to the Forces.  The great thing about the ones I've crossed paths with is that none of them have the slightest interest in any sort of "evangelism", a marked difference it seems from the USA (my uncle - or rather, my wife's uncle is a US Army Padre, and a fervent evangelical type, one of the most obnoxious I've ever had the displeasure of meeting).  I don't know - and will not generalize - that all of them are like that - but there are plenty of stories of things like Padres from the USA bringing Bibles in Arabic to Iraq (which IIRC were all burned when discovered).  Never can I say I've heard such a thing of the CF.

"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism." - Donald Morgan

Actually it doesn't take too much research at all.
Just a little bit of reading from the Holy Bible.
You will certainly start to ask yourself, How it could possibly be, that whoever put
it all together was able to predict exactly what is happening all over the world.
And then going on to say that it will be getting worse......of which it is.
Obviously, if you have never read it, then you are simply misled into non-belief.
I don't want to preach, but I believe every word that is written in the Holy Bible
was not written in vain.

 

[George Wallace]

Please - vague prophesies and confirmation bias mean basically nothing.  It's like when people make a big deal the the New Testament "confirms" prophesy in the Old Testament.  When you're writing a story, it's not hard to write it to fit the source docs.

Following that line of thought, how much faith do you have in this man's prophesies?  Nostradamus

What were your opinions of the predictions being made by the Incas or Aztecs about the world ending in 2012?

There are many prophesies out there.  Not all are religious in nature.

 

[aesop081]

Following that line of thought, how much faith do you have in this man's prophesies?  Nostradamus

LMFAO.......again, can be interpreted almost any way to suit any event.

What were your opinions of the predictions being made by the Incas or Aztecs about the world ending in 2012?

They didnt predict the world would end in 2012. Their calendar ends in 2012. Could it be that they are all dead and didnt get around to making more ?

 

[George Wallace]

They didnt predict the world would end in 2012. Their calendar ends in 2012. Could it be that they are all dead and didnt get around to making more ?

I just chalked it up to the guy making it got tired of adding to it, figuring that a couple thousand years would be good enough for his masters.

 

[Redeye]

Nostradamus' quatrains are so tremendously vague that it's again a matter of confirmation bias to prove anything in them.  Want to see something really warped, check out this guy, Edward McKinney http://www.twoprophets.org and his "interpretations" of Nostradamus.  This guy is seriously deluded.

As for the Mayans, I understand 2012 is the end of some kind of astrological cycle in their calendar.  Or something like that.  Let's just say I'm not particularly concerned about his, or any other end of the world claims.  They exist in all primative mythologies, I think.

Following that line of thought, how much faith do you have in this man's prophesies?  Nostradamus

What were your opinions of the predictions being made by the Incas or Aztecs about the world ending in 2012?

There are many prophesies out there.  Not all are religious in nature.

 

[vonGarvin]

As for the Mayans, I understand 2012 is the end of some kind of astrological cycle in their calendar. 

I think the analogy would be for someone to look at one of our calendars and say "There are no days past 31 December.  The world ends!"

 

[KrazyHamburglar]

The role of Chaplains is, as I understand it, to attend to the welfare of the Forces - spiritual welfare and otherwise.  Even though I'm an incorrigible atheist, I have plenty of time for Padres, I find many of them are interesting to talk to for their insight, and their work is still important and relevant to the Forces.  The great thing about the ones I've crossed paths with is that none of them have the slightest interest in any sort of "evangelism", a marked difference it seems from the USA

To expand on that, I'd like to say that what make the success of most Padre is that they never talk about religion, well almost never...
unless you directly engage them on religious subjects, they will never bring it up. Padres are a lot more social workers than priests. Whatever your
vision of spirituality they will help you at the best of their knowledge, the only difference with a social worker is that, for the catholics at least, will
celebrate weddings and funerals... and even during official prayers, during parades for exemple, they always reference "God" is the most general sense
and never fall into the specific of their denomination...

Padres I've met are some of the most wonderfull people in the Forces but if one of them would have brought up anything even remotely religious,
I would have turned my back and walk away...

For Ravanosh, if you join, I sure hope you don't fall into some sort of evangelism state that Redeye described...
  :endnigh: :fifty:

 

[SARgirl]

As I read through this thread, a quote from, The Song of Bernadette, comes to mind, which is as follows:
"For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation is possible."

Faith is a, lead a horse to water, type of thing: everyone has free will.  They can chose to drink the water of faith and that which comes with believing in God or not.

CDN Aviator, I hope and pray that your once upon a time childhood faith returns to you some day, before your last breath and that the faith returns to all those who have fallen in this regard and for those who have never found it, to find it.

 

[aesop081]

CDN Aviator, I hope and pray that your once upon a time childhood faith returns to you some day,

Save you prayer time for someone else, please. I made a concious decision a long time ago based on everything that has opened my eyes over the years.

My convictions are just as strong as yours, stop hoping that i will change and leave me alone. I put my faith in my family, freinds and the relationships i have made.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Study the work of the scientists I referenced, and get back to me.

If you want to be a successful Padre in the Canadian Forces, you will need to stow the attitude that you displayed in that post.

Cheers

 

[vonGarvin]

I put my faith in my family, friends and the relationships i have made.

I think this illustrates best what I mean by "spirituality" in an earlier post I made.  This is a sense of belonging to something greater than one's self.
For CDN Aviator, this is his "group".  Others have other groups. 

I hope this helps illustrate or put into context some of my earlier posts.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I think the analogy would be for someone to look at one of our calendars and say "There are no days past 31 December.  The world ends!"

Exactly. Anyone ever to stop to think they may have just ran out of room on the rock and couldn't be arsed enough to find another suitable one?

 

[Ravanosh]

If you want to be a successful Padre in the Canadian Forces, you will need to stow the attitude that you displayed in that post.

Cheers

I was simply replying in kind, it was not intended to be taken offensively. We are all equals here are we not? If that is the case, I do not see why I would not be entitled to responding in a similar manner.

Seeing how my posts have been received, I think I had best explain myself fully. My opinions are not simply formed on subjective faith, but through objective experience. I have the benefit of near-death episodes to draw upon. Since I cannot relay this first-hand experience, the next best thing is to refer to relevant science, hence my reference to the work of Dr. Thomas Campbell.

CDN_Aviator, seeing as you have studied his work, what are your opinions on the hard evidence (i.e. remote-viewing etc.)?