medicineman
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Makes you wonder why we didn't try to buy in with the RAN's build to order plan for new boats.
MM
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Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
- Thread starter Cdn Blackshirt
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Reference?drunknsubmrnr said:
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While your posts are usually spot-on, respectfully you're totally wrong on point 1 and ergo point 3. As an example, the Type 206A are being extended past 40+ years with some fairly minor refits.Oldgateboatdriver said:
I appreciate that your service was in the reserves but do you really think that experienced regular force sailors suddenly become "bozos" upon receipt of a posting signal to MSHQ?
drunknsubmrnr
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The dive cert is based on a certain definition of SUBSAFE. If that definition changes (ie changing standards for safe operation) the dive cert can be extended. The Upholders original dive cert expires in the early 2020's after 30 years from their original build dates. That dates from the original Upholder class briefings from the late 90's.
The question is on whether changing the standards for SUBSAFE is a good idea.
The question is on whether changing the standards for SUBSAFE is a good idea.
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LOL! I was there for the SCLE briefings and that was never briefed. It wasn't true then and isn't now. Here is an official CF reference that states the Victoria Class "are expected to operate into the 2030s" - either provide a verifiable reference for your claims or stay in your lane.drunknsubmrnr said:
drunknsubmrnr
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You were at the main and JR briefings? Somehow I doubt that.
The question on dive certs was asked at the JR's briefing specifically because the boats were bought used. There was a general statement given in reply that the boats dive certs expired in the early 2020's. IIRC the reply was given by one of the GTO's, not the skimmer 3-ringer.
The Upholders were bought by SCLE, not CASAP. They were intended at the time to be a stop-gap measure with compromises in quality and quantity, until we could get boats that would meet requirements.
That plan has apparently changed. Fair enough, I doubt that the usage matched the original dive cert predictions. I'm sure that the current SUBSAFE program took that into account with the dive cert extension.
The question on dive certs was asked at the JR's briefing specifically because the boats were bought used. There was a general statement given in reply that the boats dive certs expired in the early 2020's. IIRC the reply was given by one of the GTO's, not the skimmer 3-ringer.
The Upholders were bought by SCLE, not CASAP. They were intended at the time to be a stop-gap measure with compromises in quality and quantity, until we could get boats that would meet requirements.
That plan has apparently changed. Fair enough, I doubt that the usage matched the original dive cert predictions. I'm sure that the current SUBSAFE program took that into account with the dive cert extension.
Oldgateboatdriver
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Drunksubmariner is correct: It is the SUBSAFE generated figure that ultimately counts, not the wishes of those writing backgrounders for the DND website, as informed as they may be.
SUBSAFE is a complex set of formulas that takes into account all sorts of factor (expected number of dives, duration, depth, etc.) to derive a point were engineers cannot give a guarantee that the chances of the hull crushing in are below a set figure (one chance in "x" or something). I have never heard of a British diesel submarine that exceeded 30 years of certification and generally, the Brits do not use them for more than 25 years.
I do not know if the German or the Thai Navy (which according to the blog article Lex P. cites as source, knows nothing of submarine operations and wants the 206A boats to learn) use the Dive Certification based on SUBSAFE system, but the Brits, the American, the Australians and we in Canada do. By the way, some of the German Type 206 went through an extremely complex and extensive refit after 25 years of service, to get only a ten year extension of life. The mods were so extreme that they re classed them as 206A. When the ten years extension expired, the German stopped using them and parked them alongside the wall. Its up to the German's conscience to decide if they will sell them to some country that may put a lesser value on the life of its sailors.
An interesting comparison is provided by the Australian Collins class: The first one came in service in 1996 and is expected to retire in 2025 (basically - thirty years). The Australian government started the replacement program in 2008, as they expect the full process of design/selection/biding/construction/operational certification to take 17 years. This is the source of my calculation that we are almost already late for the replacement of our Victoria class (and the Australian government has proven more effective than Canada at getting ships in the water lately). Hence, by the way, my reference to "Bozos in Ottawa" which relates to our political masters (and possibly some senior civil servant advising them - poorly IMHO) proven incapability to manage a modern fleet - not to the uniformed sailors up there.
On a more personal note L.P., while a reservist, I started as a D.Mech. and in the mid 70's spent many weeks of training in that capacity onboard OKANAGAN (not long enough to get my dolphins unfortunately). Later, as a MARS officer, I shared for many years a townhouse in Halifax with a succession of British Exchange Submarine Officers, helping them with their constant training in all manners of boat emergencies, etc. Need I say that submarine developments, submarine warfare and similar topics filled many a discussion. I'm still in touch regularly with many of these friends and have kept up with development in the submarine world through them. So I am not totally in my lane, but I am not quite out of it either here.
SUBSAFE is a complex set of formulas that takes into account all sorts of factor (expected number of dives, duration, depth, etc.) to derive a point were engineers cannot give a guarantee that the chances of the hull crushing in are below a set figure (one chance in "x" or something). I have never heard of a British diesel submarine that exceeded 30 years of certification and generally, the Brits do not use them for more than 25 years.
I do not know if the German or the Thai Navy (which according to the blog article Lex P. cites as source, knows nothing of submarine operations and wants the 206A boats to learn) use the Dive Certification based on SUBSAFE system, but the Brits, the American, the Australians and we in Canada do. By the way, some of the German Type 206 went through an extremely complex and extensive refit after 25 years of service, to get only a ten year extension of life. The mods were so extreme that they re classed them as 206A. When the ten years extension expired, the German stopped using them and parked them alongside the wall. Its up to the German's conscience to decide if they will sell them to some country that may put a lesser value on the life of its sailors.
An interesting comparison is provided by the Australian Collins class: The first one came in service in 1996 and is expected to retire in 2025 (basically - thirty years). The Australian government started the replacement program in 2008, as they expect the full process of design/selection/biding/construction/operational certification to take 17 years. This is the source of my calculation that we are almost already late for the replacement of our Victoria class (and the Australian government has proven more effective than Canada at getting ships in the water lately). Hence, by the way, my reference to "Bozos in Ottawa" which relates to our political masters (and possibly some senior civil servant advising them - poorly IMHO) proven incapability to manage a modern fleet - not to the uniformed sailors up there.
On a more personal note L.P., while a reservist, I started as a D.Mech. and in the mid 70's spent many weeks of training in that capacity onboard OKANAGAN (not long enough to get my dolphins unfortunately). Later, as a MARS officer, I shared for many years a townhouse in Halifax with a succession of British Exchange Submarine Officers, helping them with their constant training in all manners of boat emergencies, etc. Need I say that submarine developments, submarine warfare and similar topics filled many a discussion. I'm still in touch regularly with many of these friends and have kept up with development in the submarine world through them. So I am not totally in my lane, but I am not quite out of it either here.
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Makes me wish I could skip my surface time altogether and prep for my NOPQ on a sub. By the time I'm D-Level qualified, there won't be a sub for me to serve on!
Ok that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but still, this thread makes me worry that my "career" as a submariner will only be half lived.
Any chance if I let them know I want to go subs that they will ensure I get the first available NOPQ instead of waiting up to 2 years for the backlog to clear?
Ok that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but still, this thread makes me worry that my "career" as a submariner will only be half lived.
Any chance if I let them know I want to go subs that they will ensure I get the first available NOPQ instead of waiting up to 2 years for the backlog to clear?
drunknsubmrnr
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I can't speak for MARS, but that has been known to happen in technical trades.
The reverse has happened too. If you're submarine-qualified, you may be held back from a career course if the submarine community needs you.
The reverse has happened too. If you're submarine-qualified, you may be held back from a career course if the submarine community needs you.
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What JR briefings? There were only crew briefings - not briefings by rank level. The crew of a VCS is only 48 - why would you split it up for briefings anyways?drunknsubmrnr said:
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SUBSAFE is nothing of the sort. Remainder of your post is just plain minsinformation.Oldgateboatdriver said:
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FYI - MARS-SUB do the Submarine Warfare Director Course and not other D-levels.Lumber said:
Plenty of time left on the Victoria Class for a full career.Lumber said:
The crew aboard the Victoria Class is too small to adequately prepare you for your NOPQ board in addition to their normal duties. Patience is your only option I'm afraid. PM me if you want specific details about serving in submarines.Lumber said:
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VICTORIA-Class submarines and crews form a highly cost effective instrument for the defence of Canada. However, the price of this combat capability is the unusual and hazardous conditions under which submariners operate. To counter these associated risks, a Submarine Safety (SUBSAFE) Program has been established. The SUBSAFE Program is a risk-based Safety Management System with a SUBSAFE Board, an executive committee representing Maritime Command, the Materiel Group and the Human Resources-Military Group, specifically Occupational Health services, reporting to the Chief of Maritime Staff (CMS).
The SUBSAFE Board is designed to recommend harmonization of DND and CF interdependencies and on approval of CMS, act to ensure:
the SUBSAFE Vision, CANADA'S SUBMARINES: SAFE, SILENT, SUPERIOR, is accomplished;
the SUBSAFE Core Values: Service to Canada, Our people, Professionalism and Integrity are adhered to;
the SUBSAFE Guiding Principles are followed:
SUBSAFE GUIDING PRINCIPLES
Officers, Managers and Supervisors are Responsible and Accountable for the Health and Safety of Personnel and Materiel
Communicate and Respond to Feedback
Delegate to the Most Functional Level
Capitalize on Teamwork and Flexibility
Conform to DND/CF, Canadian and Applicable International Regulations, Standards, Agreements and Best Practises
Exercise Due Diligence
Document Information and Manage Records
Prevent Incidents and Accidents and Promote Operational Effectiveness by applying Resources and Discipline to the Management System
Train for Competence and Awareness
Monitor, Measure and Trend Performance
Generate Effective Resource Stewardship
Maintain Procedures and Emergency Preparedness
Identify Hazards and Balance Risks
Seek out Innovation and Continuous Improvement
Maintain and Review Objectives and Conduct Periodic Audits
and; the SUBSAFE Objectives are achieved:
SUBSAFE OBJECTIVES
Submarine operations are to be conducted safely balancing risks against the goals of achieving the mission
Submarines will be operationally and weapons certified
Submarines will operate with a full, medically fit and trained crew
Submarines will be materially certified
All personnel onboard the submarines will be aware of all known significant hazards and trained to react accordingly to counter the associated risks
An efficient and effective SUBSAFE Program will be maintained
In the absence of specific procedures, risk management and due diligence are to be exercised
Responsibility and accountability for the SUBSAFE Program is through the military chain of command and departmental lines of authority. All entities associated with the operation, maintenance or modification of the VICTORIA-Class Submarines are responsible for acting in accordance with the SUBSAFE Policy. Submarine commanding officers are the focal point for all safety matters onboard their vessels and immediate sphere of influence. Due diligence will be exercised and documented.
CMS, as the SUBSAFE Authority, is accountable to the CDS for the safety of submarine operations. ADM(Mat), as the Materiel Authority is accountable to the DM and CDS for materiel acquisition and support services and is responsible for materiel life-cycle. ADM(HR-Mil) is accountable to the CDS for human resource policies and DGHS is responsible for occupational health. Both ADM(Mat) and ADM(HR-Mil) are required to support CMS in order that CMS can execute his personnel and materiel responsibilities related to the safe operations of submarines. The Command Submarine Safety Office, as an independent, advisory and review body, reports directly to CMS on all submarine safety matters. The SUBSAFE Board, chaired by the Director General Maritime Personnel and Readiness, harmonizes activities and issues between these stakeholders. Following extended or significant work periods, the SUBSAFE Board will co-ordinate and oversee the activities culminating in CMS's authority for the submarine to proceed to sea, dive and conduct operations.
Prior to the commencement of an operating cycle and upon the recommendations of the SUBSAFE Board, CMS will delegate the day to day management of the SUBSAFE Program to the designated Formation Commander. Specific directions and guidance to the Formation Commanders will be issued by CMS through SUBSAFE Program directives.
The Canadian Navy is committed to the safe operations of submarines in Canada and the SUBSAFE Program provides an excellent framework within which to ensure the safety of our submariners and secure Canada's future for combat-capable submarines.
The SUBSAFE Board is designed to recommend harmonization of DND and CF interdependencies and on approval of CMS, act to ensure:
the SUBSAFE Vision, CANADA'S SUBMARINES: SAFE, SILENT, SUPERIOR, is accomplished;
the SUBSAFE Core Values: Service to Canada, Our people, Professionalism and Integrity are adhered to;
the SUBSAFE Guiding Principles are followed:
SUBSAFE GUIDING PRINCIPLES
Officers, Managers and Supervisors are Responsible and Accountable for the Health and Safety of Personnel and Materiel
Communicate and Respond to Feedback
Delegate to the Most Functional Level
Capitalize on Teamwork and Flexibility
Conform to DND/CF, Canadian and Applicable International Regulations, Standards, Agreements and Best Practises
Exercise Due Diligence
Document Information and Manage Records
Prevent Incidents and Accidents and Promote Operational Effectiveness by applying Resources and Discipline to the Management System
Train for Competence and Awareness
Monitor, Measure and Trend Performance
Generate Effective Resource Stewardship
Maintain Procedures and Emergency Preparedness
Identify Hazards and Balance Risks
Seek out Innovation and Continuous Improvement
Maintain and Review Objectives and Conduct Periodic Audits
and; the SUBSAFE Objectives are achieved:
SUBSAFE OBJECTIVES
Submarine operations are to be conducted safely balancing risks against the goals of achieving the mission
Submarines will be operationally and weapons certified
Submarines will operate with a full, medically fit and trained crew
Submarines will be materially certified
All personnel onboard the submarines will be aware of all known significant hazards and trained to react accordingly to counter the associated risks
An efficient and effective SUBSAFE Program will be maintained
In the absence of specific procedures, risk management and due diligence are to be exercised
Responsibility and accountability for the SUBSAFE Program is through the military chain of command and departmental lines of authority. All entities associated with the operation, maintenance or modification of the VICTORIA-Class Submarines are responsible for acting in accordance with the SUBSAFE Policy. Submarine commanding officers are the focal point for all safety matters onboard their vessels and immediate sphere of influence. Due diligence will be exercised and documented.
CMS, as the SUBSAFE Authority, is accountable to the CDS for the safety of submarine operations. ADM(Mat), as the Materiel Authority is accountable to the DM and CDS for materiel acquisition and support services and is responsible for materiel life-cycle. ADM(HR-Mil) is accountable to the CDS for human resource policies and DGHS is responsible for occupational health. Both ADM(Mat) and ADM(HR-Mil) are required to support CMS in order that CMS can execute his personnel and materiel responsibilities related to the safe operations of submarines. The Command Submarine Safety Office, as an independent, advisory and review body, reports directly to CMS on all submarine safety matters. The SUBSAFE Board, chaired by the Director General Maritime Personnel and Readiness, harmonizes activities and issues between these stakeholders. Following extended or significant work periods, the SUBSAFE Board will co-ordinate and oversee the activities culminating in CMS's authority for the submarine to proceed to sea, dive and conduct operations.
Prior to the commencement of an operating cycle and upon the recommendations of the SUBSAFE Board, CMS will delegate the day to day management of the SUBSAFE Program to the designated Formation Commander. Specific directions and guidance to the Formation Commanders will be issued by CMS through SUBSAFE Program directives.
The Canadian Navy is committed to the safe operations of submarines in Canada and the SUBSAFE Program provides an excellent framework within which to ensure the safety of our submariners and secure Canada's future for combat-capable submarines.
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navypuke said:
Thats a new one any thing to back that up?
drunknsubmrnr
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I thought you said you were at the main SCLE briefings? Interesting....
FYI, there were a number of briefings held for the JR's and SR's, especially when the release rate started to approach 50% of MOG 5(UW) JR's. The one I mentioned was in the Roger with a couple of GTO's and the SCLE PM.
Sub Standard
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Ex-Dragoon said:
Which part is new the one about the maintenance contract or 3 subs on the west coast? VISSC has been around for a while now and Corner Brook will be the next boat into VISSC at Victoria shipyards therefore with VICTORIA and CHICOUTIMI already out here that will make 3 boats on the west coast.
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Sub-normal said:
Now will the 3 subs out there be a permament organizational change as navypuke indicates or is it for the scheduled refit with the sub returning back east upon completion.
Sub Standard
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As far as we have been told she will stay and east coast asset/crew. Although I've been lead to believe she will conduct her TRP and weapons cert on the west coast so for part of her reactivation and running she may have a partial west coast crew.
