Stupidest policies and rules in the CF
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Just received this item in the KVA Newsletter this morning and thought it quite appropos of the subject matter here.
Now & Then Comparison
Hey! Guys . . Isn't this the truth. .
A recount of The olden Golden days since many of us were old enough to Serve. .
1950 - NCO‘S had a typewriter on their desks for doing daily reports.
2000 - Everyone has an Internet access computer, and they wonder why no work is getting done.
1950 - If you got drunk off duty, your buddies would take you back to the
barracks to sleep it off.
2000 - If you get drunk, they slap you in rehab and ruin your career.
1950 - You were taught to aim at your enemy and shoot him.
2000 - You spray 500 bullets into the brush, don‘t hit anything, and retreat
because you‘re out of ammo.
1950 - Officers were professional soldiers first and they commanded respect.
2000 - Officers are politicians first and beg you not to be given them a hard times
1950- They collected enemy intelligence and analysed it.
2000 - They collect your pee and analyse it.
1950- If you didn‘t act right, the Staff Sergeant put you in the brig until
you straightened up.
2000 - If you don‘t act right, they start a paper trail that follows you forever.
1950 - Medals were awarded to heroes who saved lives at the risk of their own.
2000 - Medals are awarded to people who work at headquarters.
1950 - You slept in barracks like a soldier.
2000 - You sleep in a dormitory like a college kid.
1950 - You ate in a mess hall, which was free, and you could have all the
food you wanted. ( A jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread)
2000 - You eat in a dining facility, every slice of bread or patty of butter
costs, and you‘d better not take too much.
1950 - If you wanted beer and conversation you went to the Officer‘s, NCO or OR's
Mess .( It may have been snobbish but it worked.)
2000 - Enlisted clubs for all ranks. The beer will cost you $2.75,
membership is forced, ( hasn't changed in 50 years) and someone is watching how much you drink. (never happened in our time, we were encouraged to drink)
1950 - Mouth off to a sergeant and you got pounded. (I know all about this, that is why I worked real hard at becoming a Sergeant)
2000 - Do it now and get handed a "time-out" card.
19450 - A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people.
*(Maybe -- time heals all myths, but I don't think so) We had leaders.
2000 - A commander will put his people on the line to protect his butt.
1950 - Wars were planned and run by generals with lots of important
victories. *(Again, maybe)
2000 Politicians with lots of equivocating who think wars are conflicts plan wars
Time changes nothing
1950 - All you could think about was getting out and becoming a civilian.
2000 - All you can think about is getting out and becoming a civilian.
Now that is progress Isn't it?
Now & Then Comparison
Hey! Guys . . Isn't this the truth. .
A recount of The olden Golden days since many of us were old enough to Serve. .
1950 - NCO‘S had a typewriter on their desks for doing daily reports.
2000 - Everyone has an Internet access computer, and they wonder why no work is getting done.
1950 - If you got drunk off duty, your buddies would take you back to the
barracks to sleep it off.
2000 - If you get drunk, they slap you in rehab and ruin your career.
1950 - You were taught to aim at your enemy and shoot him.
2000 - You spray 500 bullets into the brush, don‘t hit anything, and retreat
because you‘re out of ammo.
1950 - Officers were professional soldiers first and they commanded respect.
2000 - Officers are politicians first and beg you not to be given them a hard times
1950- They collected enemy intelligence and analysed it.
2000 - They collect your pee and analyse it.
1950- If you didn‘t act right, the Staff Sergeant put you in the brig until
you straightened up.
2000 - If you don‘t act right, they start a paper trail that follows you forever.
1950 - Medals were awarded to heroes who saved lives at the risk of their own.
2000 - Medals are awarded to people who work at headquarters.
1950 - You slept in barracks like a soldier.
2000 - You sleep in a dormitory like a college kid.
1950 - You ate in a mess hall, which was free, and you could have all the
food you wanted. ( A jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread)
2000 - You eat in a dining facility, every slice of bread or patty of butter
costs, and you‘d better not take too much.
1950 - If you wanted beer and conversation you went to the Officer‘s, NCO or OR's
Mess .( It may have been snobbish but it worked.)
2000 - Enlisted clubs for all ranks. The beer will cost you $2.75,
membership is forced, ( hasn't changed in 50 years) and someone is watching how much you drink. (never happened in our time, we were encouraged to drink)
1950 - Mouth off to a sergeant and you got pounded. (I know all about this, that is why I worked real hard at becoming a Sergeant)
2000 - Do it now and get handed a "time-out" card.
19450 - A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people.
*(Maybe -- time heals all myths, but I don't think so) We had leaders.
2000 - A commander will put his people on the line to protect his butt.
1950 - Wars were planned and run by generals with lots of important
victories. *(Again, maybe)
2000 Politicians with lots of equivocating who think wars are conflicts plan wars
Time changes nothing
1950 - All you could think about was getting out and becoming a civilian.
2000 - All you can think about is getting out and becoming a civilian.
Now that is progress Isn't it?
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OK, now let‘s put things into perspective;
1950 - If a troop gets out of line, he can be beaten within an inch of his life with a drill cane and no one would bat an eyelash.
2000 - If a troop gets out of line, he will be instructed on the proper way to behave, and punished appropriately.
1950 - Discrimination, harassmement and assault based on race, gender and sexual orientation was not only commonplace, but encouraged.
2000 - People are given equal chances to prove themselves capable of doing the job.
1950 - PTSD, CSS and "shell shock" were considered weakness and cowardice, went decades untreated, and was often the case of extreme violence, domestic abuse or suicide.
2000 - Soldiers are able to seek counselling for these problems and get the treatment they deserve.
Agreed, certain standards have gone lax, but let‘s not think TOO fondly on the "good ole days". A lot of things have improved, in my opinion.
1950 - If a troop gets out of line, he can be beaten within an inch of his life with a drill cane and no one would bat an eyelash.
2000 - If a troop gets out of line, he will be instructed on the proper way to behave, and punished appropriately.
1950 - Discrimination, harassmement and assault based on race, gender and sexual orientation was not only commonplace, but encouraged.
2000 - People are given equal chances to prove themselves capable of doing the job.
1950 - PTSD, CSS and "shell shock" were considered weakness and cowardice, went decades untreated, and was often the case of extreme violence, domestic abuse or suicide.
2000 - Soldiers are able to seek counselling for these problems and get the treatment they deserve.
Agreed, certain standards have gone lax, but let‘s not think TOO fondly on the "good ole days". A lot of things have improved, in my opinion.
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Combat Medic, I really think you don‘t know what you are talking about no NCO in the Canadian Army would be allowed to use a cane in such a manner as you describe he wouldn‘t have to he could cut you down with a few choice verbal remarks. I will grant you that No. 1 Field Punnishment was still given. I was in Pett when a Gunner died from it. I believe that was the last time No 1 Field Punnishment was awarded.
Discrimination, harassment etc was encouraged? Oh! by who? Did it happen yes, a friend of mine who was Jewish was harassed by a guy who out weighed him by about 50 lbs Goldy beat the **** of the big guy and they became best buddies ever after. Another Jewish friend of mine took a different route he just marched into the C.O.s office and complained about his platoon commander and the C.O. straightened that out in short order.
Gender harassment was often practiced on the straight guys by those you seem to think were being harassed. As for PTSD etc you have a stronger case there and I don‘t have enough room to go through it all but I‘ll give you one instance where the patient was escorted off the hill by two of his buddies to see the shrink. The patient came back one of the escorts didn‘t he was kept by the doctor and invalided out to a hospital as an S case. If you read some of the casualty reports from the 2nd War you will see that 20 percent of the battle casualties were refered for behaviour in battle problems.
Believe me no one involved in battle wants or needs an unstable person along side them and they don‘t have the time to harass them as you seem to think.
Discrimination, harassment etc was encouraged? Oh! by who? Did it happen yes, a friend of mine who was Jewish was harassed by a guy who out weighed him by about 50 lbs Goldy beat the **** of the big guy and they became best buddies ever after. Another Jewish friend of mine took a different route he just marched into the C.O.s office and complained about his platoon commander and the C.O. straightened that out in short order.
Gender harassment was often practiced on the straight guys by those you seem to think were being harassed. As for PTSD etc you have a stronger case there and I don‘t have enough room to go through it all but I‘ll give you one instance where the patient was escorted off the hill by two of his buddies to see the shrink. The patient came back one of the escorts didn‘t he was kept by the doctor and invalided out to a hospital as an S case. If you read some of the casualty reports from the 2nd War you will see that 20 percent of the battle casualties were refered for behaviour in battle problems.
Believe me no one involved in battle wants or needs an unstable person along side them and they don‘t have the time to harass them as you seem to think.
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1. I know people used to get beaten with drill canes. My grandfather was in the CF in the 50s (from about 1939-1970) and has told me of at least 5 seperate occasions when he witnessed it happening, or had it happen to him.
2. Discrimination has often been encouraged as a means of drumming out soldiers who did not have the right gender, skin colour, ethnic backgroud and so on. It may have not been official policy, but it was still in common practice.
3. As for "battle fatigue", it was typically only treated by those who showed obvious symptoms in the heat of battle. Soldiers who froze solid, refused to obey, cried helpless in their trenches were carried off the line, but what about all the other vets? Those who stayed and did their duty were no less susceptible, and they typically never got any treatment. Everyone can get CSS or PTSD, and it is certainly no indication of a weakness of character or instability. To say otherwise shows a complete ignorance about the condition.
4. You must be an anglo saxon white male between the age of 18-50 if you think that harassment and discrimination don‘t take place, or that no one has the time for it. It happens all the time, and if you‘ve never seen or heard of it, then you obviously aren‘t paying attention and have certainly never been the victim of it. Don‘t be dismissive; it happens everywhere, in and out of the CF.
2. Discrimination has often been encouraged as a means of drumming out soldiers who did not have the right gender, skin colour, ethnic backgroud and so on. It may have not been official policy, but it was still in common practice.
3. As for "battle fatigue", it was typically only treated by those who showed obvious symptoms in the heat of battle. Soldiers who froze solid, refused to obey, cried helpless in their trenches were carried off the line, but what about all the other vets? Those who stayed and did their duty were no less susceptible, and they typically never got any treatment. Everyone can get CSS or PTSD, and it is certainly no indication of a weakness of character or instability. To say otherwise shows a complete ignorance about the condition.
4. You must be an anglo saxon white male between the age of 18-50 if you think that harassment and discrimination don‘t take place, or that no one has the time for it. It happens all the time, and if you‘ve never seen or heard of it, then you obviously aren‘t paying attention and have certainly never been the victim of it. Don‘t be dismissive; it happens everywhere, in and out of the CF.
Gunner
Army.ca Veteran
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Combat Medic, well stated comments. I was going to respond to Art Johnson last night but was called away to do a couple of things.
To compare the army of yesterday and the army of today is like comparing apples and oranges. There are similarities but for the most part they are different.
Society has changed since the 50s, 60s and even the 70s. It is only logical that the army has changed with.
I remember the old days when officers would draft correspondence and hand it to a clerk or a typing pool to place in a proper format and type it out. It would come back for signature/changes and then it would be sent out. The advent of computers and internet has drastically reduced the time required to "make things happen". The passage and management of information is conducted at a rate that was not conceivable 15 years ago.
As far as
Fast forward a few years and I certainly recall some very good officers that I looked up to when I joined the military in the 80s...unfortunately there were also alot of the "hangers on" that spent most of their time in the mess telling each other how important they were. From my perspective there is alot less (officers, WOs and Sr NCOs) of that now becuase was are so much smaller. If you don‘t pull your weight it is noticed alot more and there is less places to post someone too if no one wants him.
To compare the army of yesterday and the army of today is like comparing apples and oranges. There are similarities but for the most part they are different.
Society has changed since the 50s, 60s and even the 70s. It is only logical that the army has changed with.
I remember the old days when officers would draft correspondence and hand it to a clerk or a typing pool to place in a proper format and type it out. It would come back for signature/changes and then it would be sent out. The advent of computers and internet has drastically reduced the time required to "make things happen". The passage and management of information is conducted at a rate that was not conceivable 15 years ago.
As far as
I wish it was so black and white. Many of our officers were incompetent during WW2 due to our lack of military preparedness prior to WWII. Most made do as best they could with the knowledge they learned the hard way (soldiers dieing).
Fast forward a few years and I certainly recall some very good officers that I looked up to when I joined the military in the 80s...unfortunately there were also alot of the "hangers on" that spent most of their time in the mess telling each other how important they were. From my perspective there is alot less (officers, WOs and Sr NCOs) of that now becuase was are so much smaller. If you don‘t pull your weight it is noticed alot more and there is less places to post someone too if no one wants him.
H
hoganshero
Guest
off topic but pertinenent none-the-less
this link is regarding US recruits being given stress cards. Appears this rumor (which I too have heard) is universal amongst armies.
http://snopes.com/military/stress.htm
this link is regarding US recruits being given stress cards. Appears this rumor (which I too have heard) is universal amongst armies.
http://snopes.com/military/stress.htm
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"4. You must be an anglo saxon white male between the age of 18-50 if you think that harassment and discrimination don‘t take place, or that no one has the time for it. It happens all the time, and if you‘ve never seen or heard of it, then you obviously aren‘t paying attention and have certainly never been the victim of it. Don‘t be dismissive; it happens everywhere, in and out of the CF."
Combat Medic, I am white, Anglo Saxon and well past 50 believe me. I didn‘t say that harassment and discrimination didn‘t take place in fact I mentioned a couple of examples and certainly know of more BUT they were not officially encouraged as you seem to indicate. We had two brothers one was a good soldier the other was not, they were both black, I‘m sure that the one who wasn‘t a good soldier was refered to by some people with an ethnic slur. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that some people were refered to as "
Limey *******s" or "Frogs" or "Pepsis".
It is not that long ago that a Gay Naval Officer was doing a strip dance in a Gay night Club on a regular basis and the powers that be thought nothing of it but a young Infantry Officer at Pett was forced to quit his job as a Pizza delivery man because it was considered unbecoming conduct for an officer.
I said before that this is a long subject to discuss on a board but if I may, at the beginning of the 2nd WW a catagory system was in place for enlistment purposes ie Catagory A,B,C,D,F. This was found not to be satisfactory and a waste of manpower so the PULEMS system was instituted and men who could not hack the rigours of battle were reasigned to tasks more suited to their demeanor and those that were not suitable were retuned home for treatment. Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto and Westminster Hospital in London Ontario were two hospitals that I know of that provided extensive care for soldiers that had suffered from "Shell Shock", for lack of a better word at the moment. I remember a chap named Smitty from the RCR who‘s face was all burned up from phosphourus in Italy, he lived and worked in Sunnybrook for 10 years or so while they reconstructed his face, nobody thought of him as a coward, unfortunately he commited suicide, but it wasn‘t from lack of care and understanding by the hospital staff.
While I was in Japan a chap blew the top of his head off because his wife sent him a "Dear John". The Red Cross pulled out all the stops to get him home but all their efforts were for naught, nobody thought he was a coward.
I spent 18 months in Military hospitals when I returned home after being wounded and have nothing but praise for the hospital staffs and the care the government provided the Veterans at that time.
One final note I really find your father‘s story about being beaten hard to swallow, maybe you could tell us the unit he was with.
Combat Medic, I am white, Anglo Saxon and well past 50 believe me. I didn‘t say that harassment and discrimination didn‘t take place in fact I mentioned a couple of examples and certainly know of more BUT they were not officially encouraged as you seem to indicate. We had two brothers one was a good soldier the other was not, they were both black, I‘m sure that the one who wasn‘t a good soldier was refered to by some people with an ethnic slur. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that some people were refered to as "
Limey *******s" or "Frogs" or "Pepsis".
It is not that long ago that a Gay Naval Officer was doing a strip dance in a Gay night Club on a regular basis and the powers that be thought nothing of it but a young Infantry Officer at Pett was forced to quit his job as a Pizza delivery man because it was considered unbecoming conduct for an officer.
I said before that this is a long subject to discuss on a board but if I may, at the beginning of the 2nd WW a catagory system was in place for enlistment purposes ie Catagory A,B,C,D,F. This was found not to be satisfactory and a waste of manpower so the PULEMS system was instituted and men who could not hack the rigours of battle were reasigned to tasks more suited to their demeanor and those that were not suitable were retuned home for treatment. Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto and Westminster Hospital in London Ontario were two hospitals that I know of that provided extensive care for soldiers that had suffered from "Shell Shock", for lack of a better word at the moment. I remember a chap named Smitty from the RCR who‘s face was all burned up from phosphourus in Italy, he lived and worked in Sunnybrook for 10 years or so while they reconstructed his face, nobody thought of him as a coward, unfortunately he commited suicide, but it wasn‘t from lack of care and understanding by the hospital staff.
While I was in Japan a chap blew the top of his head off because his wife sent him a "Dear John". The Red Cross pulled out all the stops to get him home but all their efforts were for naught, nobody thought he was a coward.
I spent 18 months in Military hospitals when I returned home after being wounded and have nothing but praise for the hospital staffs and the care the government provided the Veterans at that time.
One final note I really find your father‘s story about being beaten hard to swallow, maybe you could tell us the unit he was with.
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I‘m trying to get some perspective here. Art... you say that you‘re well over 50 and a WW2 vet who just got back from Afganistan with the troops?
In Japan? Huh? You‘re also a Korean War vet?
Mind explaining how that could be? Just a wee bit currious thats all....not trying to be a jerk. I hold vets in VERY high regard seeing how I‘m a Legion memeber...
Regards
In Japan? Huh? You‘re also a Korean War vet?
Mind explaining how that could be? Just a wee bit currious thats all....not trying to be a jerk. I hold vets in VERY high regard seeing how I‘m a Legion memeber...
Regards
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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If you look into Melady‘s history of the Korean War, you will see Art‘s name there. He served in the 48th Highlanders in the late 1940s, after WW II, then in two different battalions of the RCR in Korea.
There are photos of him and an interview at my website at http://www.canadiansoldiers.com - look PERSONALITIES for these.
Direct link is here:
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/johnson.htm
A look at the KVA website will also find you some articles by Art; he has long been associated also with the WW II history of the 48th as a curator of the regimental museum with close contacts with WW II vets.
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Michael Dorosh...thank you for clearing up my questions so quickly.
Art... My appologies
So you‘re a re-enactor ‘eh? Always wanted to get into that stuff but don‘t know of any units that do armour around our area (Pet). One of these days when I go out west for an FTX I‘ll have to stop in and see what exactly you do.
Regards
Art... My appologies
So you‘re a re-enactor ‘eh? Always wanted to get into that stuff but don‘t know of any units that do armour around our area (Pet). One of these days when I go out west for an FTX I‘ll have to stop in and see what exactly you do.
Regards
M
miranda
Guest
BMI mania.... a list of soldiers who were not permitted to wear CF sweaters(too embarassing for the CO). BFT you must finish with all you started with, water included. BTW been reading this stuff for a week or two and for the record Franko missed his calling .. should be entertaining the Tps as opposed to leading(just kidding).
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Who said he was leading?
GW
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