Suicides

[mariomike]

That data is of ery dubious quality unfortunately due to the sampling.

Just posted for what it is worth to the discussion, as it includes CAF.

I am not affiliated with the source,

Tema Conter
https://www.tema.ca/
"We Are Canada's Leading Provider of Peer Support, Family Assistance, & Training for our Public Safety & Military Personnel Dealing with Mental Health Injuries"

Paramedics: 33,500 (Paramedic Chiefs of Canada 2015)
Firefighters: 110,000 (International Association of Firefighters 2015)
Police Officers: 68,693 (Statistics Canada 2014)
Military: 95,000 (Department of National Defence 2015)
Canadian Males (All Ages): 16,917,300 (Statistics Canada 2012)
Canadian Females (All Ages): 17,191,500 (Statistics Canada 2012)
Gender Specific Suicide Statistics (Statistics Canada 2012)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That data is of ery dubious quality unfortunately due to the sampling. Also note that it doesn't reliably capture the suicides of released members of any of those organizations. That data simply does not exist for CAF veterans on an ongoing basis, though there was a decent study that captured data from 1972-2006 including the suicide statistics for CAF veterans deceased up to that point. It did find a very significantly higher likelihood of suicide among released reg force military males (about 50% higher, which epidemiologically is huge). We have no good data on released veteran suicide since 2006, and no good suicide data at all on reservists or women.

They don't track Reservists' suicide unless it happens while employed with the Regs. Then it's a Reg force suicide.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The main reason for the lack of tracking is the lack of Identification.

Once a member leaves the Canadian military, there is no consistant standard to identify the person as a Veteran.  No ID card, nothing.  Therefore, it is not the people capturing the numbers, but the problem lies with the Government not taking an active measure to make ALL Retired members identifiable.

Until then, we will NEVER get accurate numbers on Suicides of retired members.

dileas

tess

 

[brihard]

The main reason for the lack of tracking is the lack of Identification.

Once a member leaves the Canadian military, there is no consistant standard to identify the person as a Veteran.  No ID card, nothing.  Therefore, it is not the people capturing the numbers, but the problem lies with the Government not taking an active measure to make ALL Retired members identifiable.

Until then, we will NEVER get accurate numbers on Suicides of retired members.

dileas

tess

Yup, that's a big component of it. The workaround on this is for any coroner-determined completed suicide in Canada to be run by name and date of birth against CAF service records. That will get a statistically reliable solution to tracking veteran suicide, and should be pretty straightforward. VAC promised in October 216 that by December 2017 veteran suicides would be tracked, and the issue has been further reinforced in Parliamentary committee.

Mariomike- Yup, I'm familiar with Tema. They do good work, though I don't know what justifies their claim to be "Canada's leading provider of ... etc" for military veterans. They grew out of the Paramedic community and expanded to all emergency services, but really haven't made any inroads into the military community that I can see.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Yup, that's a big component of it. The workaround on this is for any coroner-determined completed suicide in Canada to be run by name and date of birth against CAF service records. That will get a statistically reliable solution to tracking veteran suicide, and should be pretty straightforward. VAC promised in October 216 that by December 2017 veteran suicides would be tracked, and the issue has been further reinforced in Parliamentary committee.

Mariomike- Yup, I'm familiar with Tema. They do good work, though I don't know what justifies their claim to be "Canada's leading provider of ... etc" for military veterans. They grew out of the Paramedic community and expanded to all emergency services, but really haven't made any inroads into the military community that I can see.

That could be done by the coroner, very good point. However (And being one, you can correct me) does the first responder not begin the process of Identification?  If so, that will be better to flag the coroner to check the database.  Otherwise said coroner would have to do the search for everyone that came in. Not a viable solution considering the volume of deaths some of them have to process. 

As for TEMA, Stephane Grenier and Vince Savoia worked in the beginning of both OSISS and TEMA, together to come up with the Peer support concept for Paramedics.  TEMA has helped many Military Veterans where OSISS could not, and Vice Versa in the early days of both organizations.  Vince is a very good friend of mine, and I can get anyone in touch with him if you all would like more information or history on TEMA.

dileas

tess

 

[mariomike]

Vince is a very good friend of mine, and I can get anyone in touch with him if you all would like more information or history on TEMA.

I worked a shift or two ( or more? ) on the cars with Vince when my permanent partner was off. He was a pleasure to work with.
I wouldn't hesitate to contact or recommend him.

 

[brihard]

That could be done by the coroner, very good point. However (And being one, you can correct me) does the first responder not begin the process of Identification?  If so, that will be better to flag the coroner to check the database.  Otherwise said coroner would have to do the search for everyone that came in. Not a viable solution considering the volume of deaths some of them have to process. 

As for TEMA, Stephane Grenier and Vince Savoia worked in the beginning of both OSISS and TEMA, together to come up with the Peer support concept for Paramedics.  TEMA has helped many Military Veterans where OSISS could not, and Vice Versa in the early days of both organizations.  Vince is a very good friend of mine, and I can get anyone in touch with him if you all would like more information or history on TEMA.

dileas

tess

Any suicide will have both police and coroner attending. Police will typically identify the deceased if it's not very obvious. The coroner will make a ruling on cause of death, and the coroner is responsible for preparing the certificate of death. The certificate of death will include personal identifiers and a cause of death under the ICD-10 system, which includes deliberate self harm. The death certificate data is held provincially. They'll compile statistics on cause, age, sex, etc and fire it up higher to Statistics Canada for the national mortality database, but when they do that it doesn't include name or date of birth. So the relatively straightforward step here is for the provincial coroners to send up the name/DOB of every suicide up to be run against a database of anyone who's ever had a service number. That could easily be automated. I think that's how VAC is going to do it if they make their December commitment; it's certainly the course of action I and others have suggested.

Thanks for the info regarding Tema, Tess- I know they're southern Ontario based, so their military related efforts may have been more concentrated down there. I didn't realize Stephane Grenier was involved with them, but that's excellent if so. I met Vince when he came up to Whitehorse and did a presentation, I really, really like what they do, I just haven't seen much involvement with the CAF. But me not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. They've definitely been working a lot on the education side, and I'm actually currently enrolled in a program that they helped design for first responder mental health work. If they did expand more into the military community, that could be a really good thing.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Any suicide will have both police and coroner attending. Police will typically identify the deceased if it's not very obvious. The coroner will make a ruling on cause of death, and the coroner is responsible for preparing the certificate of death. The certificate of death will include personal identifiers and a cause of death under the ICD-10 system, which includes deliberate self harm. The death certificate data is held provincially. They'll compile statistics on cause, age, sex, etc and fire it up higher to Statistics Canada for the national mortality database, but when they do that it doesn't include name or date of birth. So the relatively straightforward step here is for the provincial coroners to send up the name/DOB of every suicide up to be run against a database of anyone who's ever had a service number. That could easily be automated. I think that's how VAC is going to do it if they make their December commitment; it's certainly the course of action I and others have suggested.

Thanks for the info regarding Tema, Tess- I know they're southern Ontario based, so their military related efforts may have been more concentrated down there. I didn't realize Stephane Grenier was involved with them, but that's excellent if so. I met Vince when he came up to Whitehorse and did a presentation, I really, really like what they do, I just haven't seen much involvement with the CAF. But me not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. They've definitely been working a lot on the education side, and I'm actually currently enrolled in a program that they helped design for first responder mental health work. If they did expand more into the military community, that could be a really good thing.

I think you can attest to it, VAC and the Governement are making steps towards addressing Suicide in our community.  And I know othing is going to happen overnight.  Anything to make the jobs of the good people on the frontline easier, is what I am for.  Thanks for the run through of the actual steps, as you can imagine I have no clue, just a layman's idea.

Vince is good people.  Just pure in his efforts.  Yeah, when I first started with OSISS was when I was introduced by Stephane to Vince as I am the GTA Rep.  We got along and over the years just did so much together. 

dileas

tess

 

[brihard]

I think you can attest to it, VAC and the Governement are making steps towards addressing Suicide in our community.  And I know othing is going to happen overnight.  Anything to make the jobs of the good people on the frontline easier, is what I am for.  Thanks for the run through of the actual steps, as you can imagine I have no clue, just a layman's idea.

Vince is good people.  Just pure in his efforts.  Yeah, when I first started with OSISS was when I was introduced by Stephane to Vince as I am the GTA Rep.  We got along and over the years just did so much together. 

dileas

tess

I wish I could feel more comfortable attesting to that, but no, I cannot yet because I don't really see it being the case. There's some slow movement happening in a couple Parliamentary committees (ACVA and SECU) for veterans and first responders respectively. VAC and DND have both pledged a suicide prevention strategy, but as of yet I have seen no forward movement, and I have a semi-insider view on that. I have seen little tangible increase in resources intended to prevent or address mental health injuries.

I hold on to a few hopes:
- That budget 2017 will have some serious forward movement, including concrete steps on the suicide prevention strategy, concrete steps on establishing a veteran specific residential mental health treatment facility, and concrete steps on getting the veteran suicide data.
- That we will see more training offered to families and informal peer support networks. There is a little bit of this starting to happen with VAC sponsored Mental Health First Aid - Veterans courses, but the capacity rolled out so far is pathetic.

The Liberals have basically burned any benefit of the doubt they had at this point in this regard. They have had more than a year to move forward on something. The stakeholder summits and advisory groups are great and all that, and have had some impact in some other aspects (90% ELB came directly out of that), but on mental health and suicide prevention, nothing tangible yet. We understand that budget 2016 was too fast after the election for most of the big issues, but this should be the one to start moving. Anything starting later than this coming fiscal will be too slow to avoid being caught up in pre-2019-election BS. I for one am adopting a cautious wait and see approach on this. If they simply keep their mandate promises, I'll be quite happy with that. That'st he measuring post they established for themselves and it's a good one. Now they need to stick to it.

 

[dapaterson]

A few points.

1.  Female suicides.  Because the numbers are small, they are often not analysed in annual reports, because (a) the numbers are not statistically significant and (b) the numbers are so small that any discussion would likely identify the individuals.  The Surgeon General does track them, but reporting generally is not done to avoid identifying individuals.

2.  Reservists.  If a Reserve unit reports an individual, they will be recorded and reported.  If units report deaths without identifying them as suicides, they will not be reported.  In overall statistics, an individual will be reported against the component they belonged to when they died - there will be no mixing just because someone was serving with another component at the time of their death.

3.  Veterans.  As previously noted, there is not a common method for identifying and reporting veterans suicides. I know that the Surgeon General and his staff have this as a major area of concern, and spend significant time with both VAC and Statistics Canada looking for methods to better track this information.  The challenge is in respecting individual privacy while tracking data; how much information are people willing to provide once they have released?  If you are a former CAF member, how much do you want VAC and/or the CAF to track you?

 

[brihard]

A few points.

1.  Female suicides.  Because the numbers are small, they are often not analysed in annual reports, because (a) the numbers are not statistically significant and (b) the numbers are so small that any discussion would likely identify the individuals.  The Surgeon General does track them, but reporting generally is not done to avoid identifying individuals.

2.  Reservists.  If a Reserve unit reports an individual, they will be recorded and reported.  If units report deaths without identifying them as suicides, they will not be reported.  In overall statistics, an individual will be reported against the component they belonged to when they died - there will be no mixing just because someone was serving with another component at the time of their death.

3.  Veterans.  As previously noted, there is not a common method for identifying and reporting veterans suicides. I know that the Surgeon General and his staff have this as a major area of concern, and spend significant time with both VAC and Statistics Canada looking for methods to better track this information.  The challenge is in respecting individual privacy while tracking data; how much information are people willing to provide once they have released?  If you are a former CAF member, how much do you want VAC and/or the CAF to track you?

1 and 2 - yup and yup, though I would contend that if a serving reservist dies, part of the administrative followup should be getting a death registration that includes cause of death in case it's pertinent.

3- The issue is being worked, yes. I laid out above a pretty straightforward way for it to get collated, and I believe this was the approach used in the 2011 Canadian Forces Cancer and Mortality Study. I don't have info on the mechanics of that study and how it was actually 'done', but they did track every enrolled CAF member between '72 and '06, and tracked all suicide deaths up until December 31st 2006. So we have data basically right up to the start of Kandahar. That data showed an almost 50% higher rate of suicide for released male veterans. That's huge, and is probably worse now.

 

[Staff Weenie]

There are also deaths which could possibly be suicides, but are not recorded as such. Coroners have differing policies across the country on what it takes to rule a death as a suicide. I am aware of at least one case where a mbr most probably deliberately ended their life. Because there was no prior suicidal ideation, nor a note, the Coroner ruled it as undetermined. There are some 'snap decision' suicides where there is little to no warning, and no note. I am not sure how frequent these are, nor how many of the deaths of CAF mbrs fall into this category. But, they would represent additional numbers that are not counted.

 

[mariomike]

There are also deaths which could possibly be suicides, but are not recorded as such.

There could be a suicide clause, or a belief that there is, in the life insurance policy. So make it look accidental.
Maybe they don't want family, friends, employer, neighbours, church etc. to feel shame. Or don't want to be remembered as a suicide.  Religious or cultural beliefs about suicide. How many overdoses, head-on collisions, jump or fall in front of a subway or off a roof, drownings, carbon monoxide, self-inflicted gunshot wound, etc. are accidental or intentional? How many were on sudden impulse? How many relatives have hidden or destroyed suicide notes before calling it in?

Being ruled an accidental death rather than suicide may be preferred for various reasons.

That could apply to the general population.

 

[Gunner98]

Keep in mind that (as of Dec 2016) the average CAF member joins at age 23 and retires after 14 years service at age 37, and only approx. 20% of retirees register with VAC.  Therefore, tracking retired personnel is a difficult task and relating their future issues back to time in uniform is an even larger one.

 

[mariomike]

Keep in mind that (as of Dec 2016) the average CAF member joins at age 23 and retires after 14 years service at age 37, and only approx. 20% of retirees register with VAC. 

Retiring after 14 years ( full-time in the pension plan? ) may lead to financial fears, depending on pension arrangements and individual debts.

From what I have read on here, the Legion does not seem to be as important in the lives of retired CAF members as it perhaps once was.

It may provide some camaraderie, but can never equal the strong feeling of “family” wearing a uniform provides.

From what I understand - not an SME - one of the most vulnerable times for many workers is the period nearing retirement and the first year or two after.

Does the CAF recognize the tremendous impact retirement has on an individual?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Does the CAF recognize the tremendous impact retirement has on an individual?

By that you mean how happy retirement makes most of them? I doubt it

 

[brihard]

Keep in mind that (as of Dec 2016) the average CAF member joins at age 23 and retires after 14 years service at age 37, and only approx. 20% of retirees register with VAC.  Therefore, tracking retired personnel is a difficult task and relating their future issues back to time in uniform is an even larger one.

I'll throw further confusion into this one. The quoted 'average' of 14 years in this case is, I suspect, a 'mean'- which sets me up for being a great pun about 'meaningless'. What would be much more useful would be a chart of how many people release at different years of service. I bet you'd ses a very large cohort getting out between the 4-6 year mark; those who serve a VIE and then pop smoke, carry on with a civvie career and don't look back. Not actually a retirement; rather troops who serve a brief time while young then move on with life. On the other end you have a sizeable cohort who do 25-35 years+ and get out; the true career soldiers/retirees. There will be some in the middle too off course, those who do 12 or 15 or 18 years and then have a good civilian opportunity come up, or alternatively who medically release. I suspect though that this group is smaller than either end of the curve, so the 'average' time before release here is deceptive.

There are also deaths which could possibly be suicides, but are not recorded as such. Coroners have differing policies across the country on what it takes to rule a death as a suicide. I am aware of at least one case where a mbr most probably deliberately ended their life. Because there was no prior suicidal ideation, nor a note, the Coroner ruled it as undetermined. There are some 'snap decision' suicides where there is little to no warning, and no note. I am not sure how frequent these are, nor how many of the deaths of CAF mbrs fall into this category. But, they would represent additional numbers that are not counted.

Absolutely. Single vehicle/single occupant MVCs, deliberate overdoses... What would be broadly called 'death by misadventure'. There are definitely suicide written off as drunk driving deaths and accidental overdose. Very hard to get figures for that though.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Retiring after 14 years ( full-time in the pension plan? ) may lead to financial fears, depending on pension arrangements and individual debts.
...
Does the CAF recognize the tremendous impact retirement has on an individual?

Ah! mario!, mario!, mario!

I wish people would understand statistics better. the average CAF career of 14 years does not mean that a majority of members serve for 14 years and then "retire" on an insufficient pension (actually I would think few do, because I have a hard time thinking of a combination of usual terms of service that would give you that number).

It's an average. And we usually have terms of service that start with a relatively short period, wether the 5  or 7 years officers from the ROTP or specialist university programs (medical, dentistry etc.) have to give back or the first, short, term given to NCM at the beginning of their career to see if they like it. A fairly important portion of these members do not re-enlist after that original service and go on with their civilian career at a reasonably young age, bringing the average down. The others that go on then are given a long term contract, and the large majority of them stay in for an amount of time that is sufficient to generate a reasonable pension.

I am sure there are some that fall in the middle - longer service but not long enough to generate a reasonable pension to live on - but I suspect that is a fairly small number, and most of them are still young enough to find other civilian employment in the meantime. You know, mario, the very large majority of people retiring from the CAF are still quite capable of working after they retire  .

 

[mariomike]

You know, mario, the very large majority of people retiring from the CAF are still quite capable of working after they retire  .

How many, would you say, stay in for the whole ride? ie: The 70 per cent pension.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Dapaterson is the number whiz, but I would venture a guess that, of those members that re-sign after their original short duration term, about 80% go the whole pension route.

This is based on the anecdotal fact that I kept bumping in the same people all the time throughout my 35 years in  .

Others may feel free to chime in, and people with actual data can also chime in.